Francois Joseph Savoie SOLVED

Yes, I remember that thread.

https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/savoie/7/

“I've also been looking for proof of Francois's parentage.I have seen one unsupported assertion ofthe lineage in a small book on the Savoys whose title I've misplaced.No documentation is offered in the book for the assertion. The author records it as some his father told him.I believe to be the origin of the story.”

I’ve tried to show how an oral tradition can be documented. I’m sorry that no one is willing to put in the work except you, Joe.

Can you add as a text document attached to Francois’ profile? If you want to remove even more identity details, that’s fine. We’re looking for a timeline most of all.

Now add on top of that, he gets word that his uncle is plotting to capture his mother. What would you do? I think most of us would have fled for our lives under those circumstances. It is certainly reasonable to believe that this is exactly what Francois did.

If I was a duke, aged 16 and not 6, trained in arms since my death at age 6, with a mother who was *a Medici, a Bourbon, sister to the King of France, and the sister in law of the King of England,* I would be going to battle under my lady’s banner, of course. Because Tomasso never had a shot against those odds, as shown by complete acquiescence soon enough.

And if Francis Hyacinth hadn’t died of a fever at age 6, it would have been the same.

Princes do not become plowmen.

I see you’re throwing the oral tradition, as written down by Louis Savoy, out the window. How does that comport with the oral tradition argument?

I agree that it doesn’t work for Francois to have been a son of Tomasso. However, that has been the focus of the claim for a number of years.

So, you don’t have oral tradition, written tradition, internet speculation / claims, or historical appraisals to help substantiate the claim.

You could start by verifying Francis Hyacinth’s dates with the webmaster.

Her lover sounds like a gifted man. https://it-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Filippo_San_Martino_...è?_x_tr_sl=it&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

And he and Christina of France seem like they did a good political job of threading the needle between competing interests, including protecting her children.

Citation for Francis Hyacinth’s death:

Il 4 ottobre 1638 morì il giovane Francesco Giacinto [11] e in poco tempo, voci insistenti, fecero sospettare che il nuovo Duca, Carlo Emanuele, di appena quattro anni, fosse in realtà figlio del conte e di Maria Cristina.

Translation:

"He died with words and sayings so sensible that hehhero of the miraculous ... Madam Reale, entering the Carmelite convent for two days with the same weeping, mourned the death of her and her firstborn son." Letter from Count Filippo d'Agliè (Archives of the Kingdom) in: Augusto Bazzoni, The regency of Maria Cristina, Duchess of Savoy , Seb's school printing house. Franco and sons, 1865

That would be a primary document report, contemporaneous with the event, of Francis Hyacinth’s death.

Almost exactly a year after Victor Amadeus’s suspicious death, the child-duke Francis Hyacinth was himself dead (4 October 1638); the duchy’s future thus lay with a single male infant, Charles Emmanuel, barely four years old and of fragile health. What had amounted to a cold war from October 1637, when Maurice and Thomas Carignano had just about accepted Marie Christine as regent, was replaced by a hot civil war over control of fragile infant duke, the duchess backed (somewhat reluctantly on her part) by the French regime, the princes supported by the Spanish. Thomas Carignano returned from the Low Countries to north Italy, and in March 1639 entered the Savoyard states at the head of an armed force, taking a series of towns and eventually occupying Turin over the summer of 1639, and submitting the capital to a second siege in 1640. It was not until June 1642 that the conflict was finally settled.18

Osborne, Toby (2017) 'Delineating early modern factions : a unique 17th century document.', in A Europe of courts, a Europe of factions : political groups at early modern centres of power (1550-1700). Leiden ; Boston: Brill, pp. 219-250. Rulers and elites. (12).
Further information on publisher's website:
https://doi.org/10.1163/97890043505880 12

And she has a biography:

https://www.biblio.com/book/reggenza-di-maria-cristina-duchessa-di/...

La reggenza di Maria Cristina duchessa di Savoia 1865 [Hardcover]
by Augusto Bazzoni
Book Condition: New
Book Description:
2015. Hardcover. New. (Size: 18.78 x 25.13 cms) Lang: - Italian, Pages 420. Reprinted in 2015 with the help of original ed…
Title: La reggenza di Maria Cristina duchessa di Savoia 1865 [Hardcover]

La Reggenza di Maria Christina, Duchessa di Savoia. Con nuovi documenti
By Augusto Bazzoni. Page 120. <GoogleBooks>

Il giovinetto Duca Francesco Giacinto, malfermo di salute, gracilissimo di corpo, sofferente l'asma, moriva, non ancora settenne, nel Castello del Valentino (3 ottobre 1638) (1). L'altro figlio di Vittorio Amedeo cingeva la corona ducale sotto il nome di Carlo Emanuele II nella tenera età di quattro anni. Le formalità del giuramento si compirono, e la madre venne riconfermata nella reggenza.

Google translation:

The young Duke Francesco Giacinto, ill in health, very frail in body, suffering from asthma, died, not yet seven years old, in the Valentino Castle (3 October 1638) (1). Vittorio Amedeo's other son wore the ducal crown under the name of Carlo Emanuele II at the tender age of four. The formalities of the oath were fulfilled, and the mother was reconfirmed in the regency.

Citations:

(1) Lettera del conte Filippo d'Agliè (Archivi del Regno). (2) Lettera di Mad. Reale al Card. Maurizio (Archivi del Regno). (3) Il Principe Maurizio in tale incontro dirigeva alla Duchessa queste

(We saw that the letter (1) is held in the Archives of the Kingdom. I imagine a scholar could help track it down.)

These are letters held by “the Kings archive”, not the Savoy family archive. “archivi del Regno.”

These three letters cited in the 1865 biography were:

(1) Lettera del conte Filippo d'Agliè (Archivi del Regno). So that would be 1638, by her lover.

(2) Lettera di Mad. Reale al Card. Maurizio (Archivi del Regno). This looks to me like a letter from Christine to her brother in law Maurice, but I’m not sure. I do know “Madame Reale / Royale” was one of her titles.

(3) “Il Principe Maurizio in tale incontro dirigeva alla Duchessa queste.” Something about Prince Maurice and the Duchess. But you’d have to send that through google translate and read the context more.

If I were you, I’d explore this biographer’s reputation.

I am also tagging our Italian genealogist for his understanding of these primary sources. Livio Scremin

Livio, I am wondering also about the personal character of Christine of France. Medici don’t have much of a reputation for what we today would consider “moral” behavior. But I’m having a lot of difficulty with the idea of a Medici woman allowing her son to plow fields in the very cold, very remote, New World, I think she’d kill him first. :)

And is there more insight in Italian Wikipedia? Am I right she was a clever politician, who won? And why were her sons so sickly? French pox??

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristina_di_Borbone-Francia

I had separated posts.

This is the biography.

La Reggenza di Maria Christina, Duchessa di Savoia. Con nuovi documenti
By Augusto Bazzoni. (1865)

Page 120 refers to Francis Hyacinth. First, I’ll post the text in Italian. Then I’ll send through google translate.

https://books.google.com/books?id=aI58aehdAIIC&vq=1638&pg=PA120#v=o...

Il giovinetto Duca Francesco Giacinto, malfermo di salute, gracilissimo di corpo, sofferente l'asma, moriva, non ancora settenne, nel Castello del Valentino (3 ottobre 1638) (1).

(1) Mori con parole e detti tanto sensati, che hebbero del miracoloso. .. Madama Reale entrando per due giorni nel convento delle Carmelitane con un istesso pianto ha lagrimata la morte del marito e del figlio primogenito. Lettera del conte Filippo d'Agliè (Archivi del Regno).

Translation:

The young Duke Francesco Giacinto, ill in health, very frail in body, suffering from asthma, died, not yet seven years old, in the Valentino Castle (3 October 1638) (1).

(1) He died with words and sayings so sensible that they were miraculous. .. Madam Reale, entering the Carmelite convent for two days with the same weeping, mourned the death of her husband and her eldest son. Letter from Count Filippo d'Agliè (Kingdom Archives).

Mary - not yet 7 years old.

The young Duke Francesco Giacinto, ill in health, very frail in body, suffering from asthma, died, not yet seven years old, in the Valentino Castle (3 October 1638) (1).

Her first born son was Luigi Amedeo (1622-1628), according to Italian Wikipedia.

Dal matrimonio con Vittorio Amedeo I, ebbe sette figli:

1. Luigi Amedeo di Savoia (1622-1628);
2. Ludovica (o Luisa Cristina) di Savoia (1629-1692) sposò suo zio, il principe Maurizio di Savoia;
3. Francesco Giacinto di Savoia (1632 — 1638) duca di Savoia;
4. Carlo Emanuele (1634 — 1675) duca di Savoia; sposò in prime nozze la cugina Francesca Maddalena d'Orléans da cui non ebbe figli; in seconde nozze sposò un'altra cugina Maria Giovanna Battista di Savoia da cui ebbe figli;
5. Margherita Violante di Savoia (1635-1663), sposò Ranuccio II Farnese;
6. Enrichetta Adelaide di Savoia (1636-1676), sposò Massimiliano II Emanuele di Baviera;
7. Caterina Beatrice di Savoia (1636-1637).

Because he’s not her 1st born son.

1. Luigi Amedeo di Savoia (1622-1628);

Reposting for my typo.

Mary - how is that possible. The primary source says Francesco Giacinto died 1638 not yet 7 years old.

There was an earlier son who lived 1622 - 1628.

I don’t know how to make this clearer.

So you claim Wikipedia in 7 languages is all wrong? Read for yourself. I found you the primary source. Write to the webmaster who has the typo.

Louis Amedee d 1628, Francis Hyacinth d 1628

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_de_France

Elle épousa le 10 février 1619 Victor-Amédée Ier (1587 † 1637), duc de Savoie et prince de Piémont, et eut :

1. Louis Amédée (1622 † 1628)
2. Louise-Christine de Savoie (27 juillet 1629 † 14 mai 1692) épouse en 1642 Maurice de Savoie (1593 † 1657)
3. François-Hyacinthe de Savoie (1632 † 1638), duc de Savoie et prince de Piémont
4. Charles-Emmanuel II de Savoie (1634 † 1675), duc de Savoie et prince de Piémont épouse en 1663 Françoise-Madeleine d'Orléans (1648-1664) puis en 1665 Marie-Jeanne de Savoie-Nemours (1644-1724)
5. Marguerite-Yolande de Savoie (1635 † 1663) épouse en 1660 Ranuce II, duc de Parme (1630 † 1694)
6. Henriette-Adélaïde de Savoie (1636 † 1676) épouse en 1652 Ferdinand-Marie de Bavière (1636 † 1679)
7. Catherine Béatrice de Savoie (1636 † 1637)

Biography

Anne Noschis, Christine de France : fille d'Henri IV, duchesse de Savoie : biographie, 2018 (ISBN 978-2-940586-83-7 et 2-940586-83-7, OCLC 1052878481, lire en ligne [archive]) https://www.worldcat.org/title/christine-de-france-fille-dhenri-iv-...

Where do you see first born son? Did you read all of page 120?

Ah, you’re reading this, lousy machine translation.

Translation:

"He died with words and sayings so sensible that hehhero of the miraculous ... Madam Reale, entering the Carmelite convent for two days with the same weeping, mourned the death of her and her firstborn son." Letter from Count Filippo d'Agliè (Archives of the Kingdom)

It means “eldest” or “first surviving”. Because we know that she has an earlier son, 1622 - 1628. Or Wikipedia in 7 languages is wrong.

You can translate for yourself, or better yet, ask an Italian to.

Here’s another citation and description of his death from machine translation at

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Giacinto_di_Savoia

Last times and death [ edit | edit wikitext ]

The tomb of Francesco Giacinto at the Sacra di San Michele
Francesco Giacinto, appointed Prince of Piedmont , resided at the Valentino castle in those troubled years . In poor health, he was able to keep this title for just eleven months. On 14 September 1638 the child duke went to bed seized by a sudden attack of fever. On 4 October the last consultation of the doctors: Cristina ordered to convene the council of the greats of the crown, but when they reached the Valentino castle, Francesco Giacinto was already dead. The necropsy found that:

"All parts of the prince's body were defective, apart from the brain"
Francesco Giacinto had died at three in the morning. The following day, on a white litter, the body of the heir of Savoy was transported to the Turin Cathedral for the funeral. His last acts were noted by Luigi Cibrario :

«Taken by evil, he said to Carlo Emanuele, his younger brother: Take the crown, because I have finished reigning.
Dying, he asked to be given the crucifix: after having kissed it he ended his life with these words: "Now I'm happy to die." During his illness he was confirmed by the nuncio Gaffarelli, and was brought to him to kiss the distinguished relic of the SS. Shroud by Abbot Scotus, first almsgiver, accompanied by the nuncio and the archbishop. "

( History of Turin, 1846 )

Since 1836 the body has been buried in the Sacra di San Michele , where today it rests in a stone sarcophagus in the center of the old choir of the Church.
___

The appropriate term is “necropsy,” derived from necro (“death”) and the aforementioned opsis. So, all autopsies are necropsies, but not all necropsies are autopsies! In both instances, the procedure is the dissection of a body to determine why the individual died.

—-

In other words, Francis Hyacinth was autopsied.

It looks to me like she had several children who died young and the order of the daughters, is, as usual, hard to tell. Francis Hyacinth was the eldest surviving son at his father’s death, so, his heir.

And? The young duke Carlo was under protection at a castle, and within 3 years Christine had won back the regency. And this is all irrelevant, because Francis Hyacinth was dead, incredibly dead - autopsied dead. So now you have to postulate a substitute 6 year old dead boy to be reported as Francis, while the real born 1622 16 year old (who had in fact died 10 years earlier, before threat of war) (where was he hiding since 1628?) … my mind is twisting around here. It does not work.

What I was thinking is go back to what Louis Savoy wrote as the oral tradition from Uncle Peter in 1951. I reposted the page. “In 1400 or 1500 a prince of Savoy didn’t want to be it, so left Italy and traveled to France.”

Now that could be, why not. Sometime in the 200 years before Francois’ birth, a scion of the noble Savoie house established a separate family.

I’m skeptical such a long time line would sustain, but it’s sufficiently garbled that if could be, I suppose?