Francois Joseph Savoie SOLVED

https://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogie/2009/06/les-registr...

Those wouldn’t be the records because it’s the wrong region.

Martaizé (French pronunciation: ​[ma%CA%81t%C9%9Bze]) is a commune in the Vienne department in the Nouvelle-Aquitaine region in western France. It is a small village about 7 miles from Loudun.

You might be able to book an appointment with a FamilySearch volunteer for help in reading and understanding records. I did that for an American record and it was very helpful.

But you’re not going to find Francois’ birth record, because greater minds that any of us have not. It’s not online.

https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Vienne,_France_Genealogy

https://script.byu.edu/Pages/the-french-documents-pages/the-french-documents(english)

It’s still the wrong region.

This is Archives départementales de la Haute-Savoie.

Francois is thought to be from the Viennes Dept in Nouvelle-Aquitaine.

Cool site though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haute-Savoie Haute-Savoie ([ot savwa] (listen); English: Upper Savoy)[2] is a department in the Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes region of Southeastern France, bordering both Switzerland and Italy. Its prefecture is Annecy. To the north is Lake Geneva; to the south and southeast are Mont Blanc and the Aravis mountain range.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nouvelle-Aquitaine Nouvelle-Aquitaine (French pronunciation: [nuv%C9%9Bl akitɛn] (listen); Occitan: Nòva Aquitània [%CB%88n%C9%94%CE%B2%C9%94 akiˈtanjɔ] or Novèla Aquitània [nu%CB%88%CE%B2%C9%9Bl%C9%94 akiˈtanjɔ]; Basque: Akitania Berria;[2] Poitevin-Saintongeais: Novéle-Aguiéne), is the largest administrative region in France, spanning the west and southwest of the mainland. The region was created by the territorial reform of French regions in 2014 through the merger of three regions: Aquitaine, Limousin and Poitou-Charentes.

Nowhere near each other.

You want the Vienne dept.

No. I’ve posted everything I know.

These are not plausible facts to me.

1. The established fact that the oral tradition originated from Francois children

No, the oral tradition has only, so far, in the 20th century, by Joe Bolton. His thought is that aunt Rita could have had it passed down from her grandfather, so if that proves out, mid 19th century. He is the Canada > Rhode Island family. There is an article no one has obtained as yet, published in 1959, from the Cajun line; so we don’t know how far back; from whom; etc.

3. The phoenetic similarity of the the names Francois (Hyacinth) Savoy and Francois Savoie. And despite the possible existence of the Savoie surname outside of the monarchy in the early 1600's, the fact that no birth or baptismal record for a Francois Savoie has ever been found.

I can’t even begin to imagine how common the forename Francois is. A missing baptismal from 1621 is usual, not unusual. Do you really think all records are online? Are translated? Have survived time? We don’t have USA records from 1890 (they burned). Do you really think you’ve found all the Savoie’s plus spelling variations born in France and analyzed them?

2. 2. Evidence overwhelmingly indicates that Francois Hyacinth was born in 1622, and Francois Savoie was born around the same time. This also means that Francois Hyacinth would have been 16 years old in 1638 when he was declared dead, cause of death is unknown. If he did flee the monarchy, It is likely he went into hiding somewhere in france for a few years before migrating to acadia around 1641

What does this fabricated story have to do with the oral tradition? It was born on YouTube in 2021/2, authored by Mary Lewis. Period.

4. The recounted details of the oral tradition indicate that Francois fled some sort of impending or established royal succession. The oral tradition also mentions the name of Thomasso Savoy Carignan, a detail which might have somehow been unintentionally misconstrued in the recollection process throughout the passing generations.

So if you’re touting the oral tradition, best to stick with the oral tradition. If you choose to construct in 2021 a different origin story, then you are no longer citing the oral tradition, and your argument is with that story, including Aunt Rita.

5. In the 16th century abandonment or betrayal of the monarchy was considered a criminal act of high treason which was punishible by death. A mother serving as regent for a son who commited treason would have been punished for his crime by either death or imprisonment. This gives plausibility to the empty casket aspect of the hypothesis.

You have supplied even one verifiable citation to support 1) this generality 2) this specific applying to Christine of France.

And once again - duchy. Minor nobility, not monarchy. It was Christine who had the pedigree, the power, the connections, and who was the winner in the struggle with her Savoie in laws.

Which was probably not current events among Arcadian ploughmen from villages in the southwest of France where no one was hiding because they were much too small. Yet, this is where Francois Savoie was recruited from to colonize New France.

And where is the documentation for this oral tradition? I have repeatedly asked it be posted so we could figure it out, and only Joe has bothered to do so.

https://www.oralhistory.org/archives-principles-and-best-practices-...

(That’s just one example)

But frankly, I’d be happy with a simple text document attached to Francois profile. For example:

I am Erica Howton. I first became aware of an oral tradition that Francois Savoie, the colonist, confessed on his death bed to his children that he was the son of Tomasso Savoie from a post on geni.com in 2009 by a descendant, Gregory, who was asking about the validity of the story.

There, documented.

Oral traditions do not rely on a genetic most recent common ancestor. They are community based transmissions.

Please add this as a text note to Francois’ profile, with a note as to your line, and who in the family you heard it from. That’s how we were able to determine a mid 1850s guess date for Joe’s family. You are still too vague.

Separate, similar notes for anyone else.

Here’s Joe’s note as example, it’s fine by me, in fact very helpful:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000178719518839&graph_node_id=profile-13474877&mode=tagged

This is the first post on Geni, I think:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000179217591840&graph_node_id=profile-13474877&mode=tagged

Sorry - re tag

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000179217591840&graph_node_id=profile-13474877&mode=tagged

2010 - from Gregory Fournerat

Let’s document what is known, there’s no point to arguments without facts. Please, make a text document & attach to Francois’ profile, we don’t want to rely on digging through endless discussion. Or write it out as a post and I’ll copy paste.

I recall you had said you had heard a story at family gatherings when you were quite small.

When / where? From whom? Who may have heard from whom who lived when / where? What exactly as best you recall? (i.e., that he was of noble birth, or …. )

And Mary, if you don’t document what you know, how can we know you have a family tradition at all?

Re: The notion that the oral tradition is community based is far-fetched ..

So in the 1950s (I think) there was a “cousin collection” from Howtons living in Oregon (my line), California, Kentucky, Alabama, etc. to hire a London genealogist and pursue the claim to the Houghton Castle in Lancaster, of “Sir Loin” fame. Needless to say, they were being scammed.

It’s called the US Mail. and genealogy has been a hobby since the 1860s, if not before.

Yes, that’s exactly my point.

Actually, “oral tradition” isn’t really possible in European cultures beyond 4 generations or so, the limits of a lifetime’s personal knowledge. There is, however, valid “family tradition,” artifact driven - heirlooms, family legal documents, letters, family Bibles - and, published articles. We have two known of for Francois Savoie, one Cajun, one Canadian, both from the 1950s. So, how widely disseminated were those articles? And how accurate? No one has even located / presented a copy of the Louisiana article to discuss as yet.

In other words, we have only sketchily shown, so far a “family tradition” to Tomasso (because he’s identified that way in print) from perhaps 1900 or so, on one line. Long, long way to the Piedmontese wars. You have to fill in the steps.

As a reminder, the tradition is from Thomas of Carignano (1596-1656), the losing side, so his son didn’t have a shot at the Duchy anyway.

—-

I read this article as a product of research, not oral tradition.

The story from “uncle Peter” who had researched some years earlier …

And then Louis Savoy expanded / corrected the research.

I’m guessing Uncle Peter had gathered from older relatives. But we’re still only at the year 1900. Lots of public libraries. :)

So what I would expect from a “family tradition” is an artifact of some kind.

For examples from my own family tree.

- great great great grandmother Effie’s wedding ring was in the possession of XX, 1980, Texas

- family Bible, entry for the birth of Edgar Hill, in the possession of E. Howton & others, 2022, Arizona.

- Edgar Hill mentioned in the Read book, 1860, son of Charles Harrison Hill.

That could be misreading “oldest son and heir …”

So, your theory is at odds with,“The family tradition” and also the “published tradition.”

But not entirely uncongruent with Uncle Peter’s “in the year 1400 or 1500, a prince from the house of Savoy did not want to become the next head of the family after his father’s death …”

Have you identified which prince that might be? Because it’s not referring to Francis Hyacinth, born 1632.