Francois Joseph Savoie SOLVED

It’s not the medium that’s the question, it’s the argument.

Mary, you’re basing a lot of your theory on (what I believe to be) a typographical error in a PR puff page for a charity. It is *not* a genealogical archive as the video claims. And there’s a simple solution to vetting the source: write to the webmaster and ask for substantiation of the dates on the site, which are at variance with every other reported dates.

What are the other sites and what primary documents are cited?

I saw the coin on the video. Again, a print source explaining the provenance would be helpful.

Yes, of course the dating on the tomb could be mistaken. His mother, however, would not be. :)

Another question I had. What possible motive is there for anyone to suppress Francois Joseph Savoie’s origins? It’s not like a descendant could claim thrones or fortunes, it’s 400 years ago. And as pointed out several times on this discussion, genealogy, including DNA studies, is indeed finding more connections to European nobility among the French Canadian colonists. But not this one, and the family was carefully scrutinized some years back, because of the (dis proven) Mik Maq origin story for his wife. So the attempt at “cover up” really lost me.

Did you attend the most recent lecture, or watch the video? Were there handouts?

https://www.prweb.com/releases/savoy_foundation_hosts_17th_annual_2...

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Please explain how an obscure princeling who died some 400 years ago would have a Royal claim, much less bring dishonor *today* on the house of Savoy, to the extent of paying off genealogists.

So there’s no evidence that can be scrutinized to back up the hypothesis?

So, what I as looking for is the print evidence more a leisurely fashion than a video. I am particularly concerned with the “genealogical archive,” as all I’ve seen thats replicated are the child dates.

Ok. Just so you know, that’s not how the genealogical proof standard works. You find the documentation, and *then* form a hypothesis from where it leads you. And it’s a positive argument, “I make my case based on these verifiable facts,” not a “prove me wrong, anything is possible” situation. Anyway, you know this. And, your goal is not really genealogical. So, work on the entertainment aspect, perhaps. There is coverup in history, but the reasons presented in the video are not realistic to me. Coverups are more usually racism.

But I’m asking *you* to present the evidence, and explain it. I’m not the researcher here.

But we *do* have definitive answers about Christine of France (Francis Hyacinth’s mother), and she was nothing like how she’s depicted in the video. We even have known DNA test from descendant Brooke Shields. The illegitimate son of the mercenary theory for Francois Joseph Savoie was more credible, to be honest, as it wouldn’t involve unbelievable shenanigans on Christine’s part. She had plenty of sons.

So you have citations for “ Deflection was an unforgivable offense, which was punishible by death. Since she was regent at the time of her sons deflection, she wouldve been put to death as well for his crime. …”?

Quibble - but not a monarch, and not a monarchy. Despite any ambitions. I’m mostly curious as to what historians you’re aquiring these concepts from.

re: With regards to Francois origins, the only established fact, is that nothing is established in fact. At this point everything is open to interpretation.

Again, that’s not really true. There is a well established history of the early colonists of America. Francois Joseph Savoie, his wife, his children, are actually pretty well documented, because FC genealogical study, record keeping and history is pretty good. As I said, the cover up issue in FC genealogy is not at all about nobility origins, it’s about Intermarriage with native (non Christian) population.

So I’ll state it plainly. I suspect the origin story is 20th century wishful thinking. Not deliberate fraud, but leading people astray in their ancestral studies is not doing anyone any favors. The evidence for his origins points to where he was likely recruited as a colonist from, that would be the step to explore. Taking a short cut and leap into Medici’s is not the scientific method,

I’m pretty sure that’s been mentioned on this discussion, as well as possibilities of the ancestral village and area in France that he may have originated from. I’m not a Savoie researcher, though, so I’d have to hunt for it. You could check his profile on geni also.

Ah, that was easy.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Savoie-9

François Savoie aka Savoye

François Savoie is the Ancestral Patriarch of the Acadian Savoie Family

François was born around 1621. [1] Many people say that François was the illegitimate son of Tomaso Francesco, but this has been disproven. It is most likely the wishful thinking of researchers who want to find a royal connection. Regarding François' location of birth, Stephen White remains silent.[2]

However Massignon[3] speculates that he may have come from Martaizé, near Loudun, France because the name Savoie is among the many Acadian names that are found in the nearby Seigneury d'Aulnay (comprising of the villages of Angliers, Aulnay, Martaizé and La Chausée).[4] However, Francois' birth record has not been found.

François probably came to Acadia around 1643. ….

3. Massignon, Geneviève. "Les parlers français d'Acadie, enquête linguistique", Librairie Klincksieck, Paris, 1962, 2 tomes. p32 (first French families in Acadia; p36. Savoie is found in the Seigneury of d'Aulnay in France; p49 Savoie family.

Page 37

4. Leclerc, Jacques, L'aménagement linguistique dans le monde, accessed at Les origines françaises des Acadiens https://www.axl.cefan.ulaval.ca/amnord/Acadiens-origines-poitou.htm

Selon la linguiste Geneviève Massignon, auteure de l'ouvrage Les parlers français en Acadie (1962), il ne serait pas dû au hasard si quelques dizaines de colons auraient quitté la région du Loudunais pour l'Acadie. Bien qu'Isaac de Razilly, gouverneur de l'Acadie de 1632 à 1635, ainsi que l'un de ses successeurs, Charles de Menou d'Aulnay (de 1642 à 1650), ne soient pas originaires du Loudunais, car ils sont nés un peu plus au nord en Touraine, ils possédaient des terres dans le Loudunais. Ils auraient ainsi entraîné de jeunes paysans de cette région pour fonder une colonie française en Nouvelle-France: les Babin, Brault, Bourg, Gautreau, Landry, Savoie, Belliveau, Brun, Dupuis, Girouard, Leblanc, Thériault, Blanchard, Gaudet, Rodichaux, Chebrat, etc. Au total, 89 familles seraient les premiers ancêtres de quelque 300 000 Acadiens.

Google translate:

According to linguist Geneviève Massignon, author of the book Les parles français en Acadie (1962), it was no coincidence that a few dozen settlers left the Loudunais region for Acadie. Although Isaac de Razilly, governor of Acadia from 1632 to 1635, as well as one of his successors, Charles de Menou d'Aulnay (from 1642 to 1650), were not from Loudunais, because they were born a little further north in Touraine, they owned land in the Loudunais. They would thus have trained young peasants from this region to found a French colony in New France: the Babins, Brault, Bourg, Gautreau, Landry, Savoie, Belliveau, Brun, Dupuis, Girouard, Leblanc, Thériault, Blanchard, Gaudet, Rodichaux , Chebrat, etc. In total, 89 families would be the first ancestors of some 300,000 Acadians.

And a comment at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Savoie-9 from Raymond Lafleur, which I imagine you had seen:

2. The surname of Francois is not circumstantial evidence. Savoie is not a rare or uncommon surname in western France. Of the parish registers indexed and online thus far, there are over 75 individual baptismal, marriage and death records of a "Savoie" between 1600 and 1650 in France, most in the western regions, specifically Maine-et-Loire and adjacent departments; precisely where researchers speculate is the region where Francois Savoie originated and where the Seigneur D'Aulnay recruited from.

PTID:6000000178679731825:6000000173616890340 are you being a bit disingenuous, to not know these notes from well-known and well-respected genealogists?

I believe this is your own source:

https://www.savoydelegation-usa.org/early-dukes-of-savoy.html

Duke Francis Hyacinth (1622-1638) was the son of Victor Amadeus I, Duke of Savoy and Christina of Bourbon of France. The Dowager Duchess, Christina of Bourbon, became Regent for their young son, Duke Francis Hyacinth, who succeeded at the tender age of 15 as the Thirteenth Duke. He was the brother of Luisa Cristina of Savoy, Charles Emmanuel II, Duke of Savoy; Margaret Yolande, princess of Savoy; Caterina Beatrice di Savoia and Enrichetta Adelaide, princess of Savoy. His reign lasted just 362 days, the shortest of any Savoy prince. The "Flower of Paradise," as he was known, died in Turin and was buried at the Abbey of San Michele della Chius.

To double check the dates posted, and ask about the discrepancy in dates on the charity fundraising page, the contact form is here:

https://www.savoydelegation-usa.org/contact--links.html

This sourced comment has been on Francois’ geni profile for years.

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“The Savoie surname is common, not only in New Brunswick, but also throughout North America. It is found in several regions of Canada, in New England and in Louisiana. However, the origin of the name is still obscure. Some allege that the surname was borne by persons who came originally from the French Department of Savoie. The esurname was already well established in France during the 17th century. There are several ancient French spellings for the name such as Savoy, Savoye, Savoix, Savois, Scavoie, and Scavois. Savoie is the first spelling which has prevailed over the others. The Acadian Savoie family is descended from only one pioneer, François Savoie who was born in France in 1621. He came to Acadia around 1642 during the administration of governor Charles de Menou d'Aulnay. Unfortunately, the precise birth place is not known. Genevieve Massignon was one of the first historians to systematically study the French archives for the origins of the Acadian families. During the course of her research she discovered in ancient parish registers the name of several families known in Acadia. The Savoies are among them. René Perron, of the Amitiés Acadiennes Association recently found in one of the parish registers of LaFerté-Gaucher, west of, Paris, the baptismal certificate of a daughter of one "François Savoye" baptized in November 1617. Upon his arrival in Acadia, François Savoie settled at Port-Royal. By 1671 he was married and the father of nine children, including three sons. His wife, Catherine Lejeune, was the sister of Edmée Lejeune, wife of another Acadian pioneer, François Gautreau.

[Telegraph-Journal, Wednesday, August 10, 1994; p. A8; contributed by Fidele Theriault of Fredericton, New Brunswick]

This is the biography for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genevi%C3%A8ve_Massignon

I can’t find any references to “Savoie” or “Bourbon” in the article titles or bibliography here:

https://brill.com/view/book/9789004400696/back-1.xml

Are there other citations for Christina of Bourbon?

PTID:6000000178679731825:6000000173616890340

1). You’re going to have to use Google Translate, because the studies are in French.

2) you’re going to have to become familiar with the work of French Canadian genealogists, some of whom have already reached out on this discussion, but have been treated dismissively, including by you.

3) I’m not the researcher, so I’m really not going to worry about parish record meta analysis. You might want to start by approaching https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lafleur-941, who might be able to point you.

4) here’s an article, in French, 'La seigneurie de Charles de Menou d’Aulnay, gouverneur de l’Acadie, 1635-1650. By Geneviève Massignon <PDF>

https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/France_Church_Records

Remember - there is no specific record for his birth, nor are all parish records on line. There is a pattern of Savoie names in the area colonists were recruited from by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Menou_d'Aulnay.

PTID:6000000178679731825:6000000173616890340 - this is why I trust the conclusions of the experts in the field. They are trained in handwriting interpretation for example.

After a dozen years of study I feel a bit competent for colonial New England - meaning, I’m learning who knows what they’re talking about. And from this discussion, the names of the experts in Arcadia have become familiar to me.

And they agree on his likely origin.

That’s the wrong department, I think.