Christina Catharina Beukes (du Plessis) - Christina Catharina Beukes daughter of Charl Prieur du Plessis and Cecelia van Marseveen?

Copy and pasting profiles can bite you in the you know where, the sentence "No record for Christina Catharina Beukes father is listed, but does note that Cornelia Petronella du Plessis married Erasmus Schmidt (b. c 1695, d. 6 May 1787) on 6 May 1731 de Caep de Goede Hoop and they had a child, Anna Smit b. 24 Feb 1732," was supposed to say: "No record for Christina Catharina Beukes father is listed, but does note that a Catharina du Plessis married Erasmus Schmidt (b. c 1695, d. 6 May 1787) on 6 May 1731 de Caep de Goede Hoop and they had a child, Anna Smit b. 24 Feb 1732."

It is assumed that the Cathrina du Plessis listed under Kornelia van Emmenes is Christina Catharina Beukes as Kornelia only had two children.

Further to this, I did find record of a Martha, "de ouders Erasmus Smit, en Cornelia van Immenes, de getuijge Christiaen Liewenberg, en Catharina Lubben" in Cape Town baptisms,
so there does seem to be a third child. https://www.eggsa.org/sarecords/index.php/church-registers/cape-tow...

Also added the baptism record for Catharina van Emmenes (d/o Gerret van Emmenes en Anna Oosthuijsen) and one for Kornelia (d/o Albert van Immenes en Trijntie van den Bos) under sources for Cecilia du Plessis in reference to the information on the First Fifty Years project.

Somehow all of this seems even more confusing and calls into question even more details. If Catharina van Emmenes (d/o Gerret van Emmenes en Anna Oosthuijsen) is Christina Catharina Beukes, she cannot be the daughter of Kornelia van Immenes (d/o Albert van Immenes en Trijntie van den Bos). On the other hand, Kornelia can also not be Catharina as the parents don't match.

All I can truly confirm is that the parentage of either of the above does not seem to have any link to Charles Prieur du Plessis and Cecilia van Marseveen.

I also checked into the details of Cecilia du Plessis, captured in Geni as daughter of Pieter Jansz van Marseveen and Elisabeth des Prez. However, this information is also in dispute and would love to find the documents of evidence.

What I can find is that Pieter Jansz was born circa 1660 in Marseveen and married Elizabeth des Prez, daughter of Hercules des Prez and Cecilea d'Atis, on 25 July 1688 Nederduitsch Gereformeerde Kerk.

They only had three children that I can find, Anna van Marseveen, Cecilia van Marseveen, and Pieter van Maarseveen.

Pieter was written in the record as Pieter Janse van Marseveen.
24 August 1698, the name of Pieter was written in the record as Pierre Marcevene, and 17 May 1711, the name of Pieter was written in the record as Piter Hance van Marcevene.

The only other child I can find for Charl Prieur du Plessis was a result of the rape of Elizabeth Vivier daughter of Abraham Vivier II. SV/PROG, and Jacquemine b5 Vivier, SM (daughter of Hercules des Prez, SV/PROG and Cecilia d'Atis, SM/PROG). This child was Elizabeth Theron. Record of the incident can be found on http://www.ballfamilyrecords.co.uk/notes/vivier_elisabeth.htm

Okay, so
1. No evidence that Charl Prieur du Plessis ha a daughter called Christina Catharina Beukes?

But where does her surname come from then?

Baptism Register, Palmkronieke I Baptisms, Catharina, de Moeder Cornelia van Immenes, 7e Feb 1723. http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g9/p9041.htm#c9041.3

Ahh - from her marriage record: www.familysearch.org) "den 11 [Novembr: 1742:] Catharina du Plessis van Cabo vernmt: jonge dogter."

and her mother's death records: (http://www.eggsa.org/) "...als haare lasst te noemene voor haare trouwen in onegt geprocreErde kind te weeten: ...10. Catharina du Plessis getrouwt met Hendrik Beukes...
http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g9/p9041.htm#c9041.3

Okay, but no proof which duPlessis was her father. Removing Charl Prieur as her father, despite the fact that his previous reputation suggests he was a good possibility :-/

Ja listen, I don't envy you trying to sort this.

However, knowing a little of Charl Prieur du Plessis, I agree that "his previous reputation suggests he was a good possibility" and he could very well be the father of Catharina Beukes. Especially in light of Elisabeth Vivier and their daughter Elisabeth du Plessis.

What I think is more at issue is that Christina Catharina Beukes' mother is not Cecilia van Marseveen, at least not that I can find anywhere recorded, and I would love to find it.

Whatever the case, this also would support the haplogroup issue that we found, but I am not sure what Kornelia van Emmenes haplogroup is.

First Fifty Years lists Kornelia van Emmenes parents as Albert Gerritse van Emmenes and Catarina van den Bosch, also supported by the baptism record for a Kornelia van Immenes daughter of Albert van Immenes en Trijntie van den Bos.

There is information that lists Catharina du Plessis as "also known as Catharina van Immenes."

But I found a baptism record (added under sources) that a Catharina van Emmenes, child of Gerret van Emmenes en Anna Oosthuijsen. So there is more Catharinas out there.

So you can see why this appears to be a nightmare.

I left this out of my previous message, but based on the above information about a Kornelia van Emmenes/van Immenes, there may also be an issue/dispute with her being the daughter of Pieter Jansz van Marseveen and Elisabeth des Prez.

The only information I could find on Pieter Jansz van Marseveen and Elisabeth des Prez is that they only had three children: Anna van Marseveen, Cecilia van Marseveen, and Pieter van Maarseveen.

So I would love to find the documents noting her mother as Elizabeth des Prez. This is also a major issue with the haplogroup difference. Elizabeth des Prez is expected to be H10 or H10e, which would mean this line could not product H1a, let alone H1ak1.

At this point, we still have no information linking Charl Prieur du Plessis as Cornelia's husband. At this point, the only information that can be pointed to does not list a Cornelia or a Catharine in connection to him.

Furthermore, the information noting Cornelia as the daughter of Pieter Jansz van Marseveen and Elisabeth des Prez has also not been uploaded yet.

The only information available is that Pieter Jansz van Marseveen and Elisabeth des Prez had three children:

Anna van Marseveen
Cecilia van Marseveen
Pieter van Maarseveen

http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g7/p7675.htm

There is record of a Kornelia van Emmenes, but her parents are listed as Albert Gerritse van Emmenes and Catarina van den Bosch. This is supported by the baptism record for a Kornelia van Immenes daughter of Albert van Immenes en Trijntie van den Bos. Furthermore, there is information listed that Catharina du Plessis as, "also known as Catharina van Immenes." http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g8/p8969.htm However, a different baptism record noted that a Catharina van Emmenes is the child of Gerret van Emmenes en Anna Oosthuijsen. http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g8/p8708.htm

Information stating that Cornelia Petronella van Emmenes is also known as Cecilia du Plessis has also been noted on Geni, however, this remains unsubstantiated at this point.

Further searching has unearthed a Cornelia du Pres, daughter of Hercules des Prez (b. circa 1702) and Elisabeth Theron.

The parents of Hercules (1702) are listed as Hercule des Prez (b. 1672, d. 9 May 1721) and Cornelia Maasdorp (Viljoen).
Elisabeth Theron is the daughter of Jacques Therond and Marie Jeanne des Prez.
Marie Jeanne's parents Hercules des Prez (b. 1645, d. b 22 Nov 1696) and Cecilia d'Atis (b. 1650, d. 1720). http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g11/p11365.htm

This Cornelia du Pres (also written as du Press) married Michiel Johan Christoph Vaatke on 9 November 1749 Drakenstein, but cannot find any issue from that marriage just yet.

With such conflicting information, it would be helpful to have the image of the original document noting the relationship to Pieter Jansz van Marseveen and Elisabeth des Prez, as well as to Charl Prieur du Plessis.

The reason why attaching images of the documentation is important is as a direct result of DNA tests pointing to some serious problems with this line. The way mt-DNA works, it is impossible to have two separate and distinct haplogroups coming from the same matriarch, in this case Cecilia d'Atis.

At this point, Geni volunteers have noted the predicted Haplogroup for her family to be H10e or H1ak1. However, refer to the discussions, as referenced on https://www.geni.com/projects/South-African-mtDNA-Female-Progenitor..., on why this is not possible.

Through the descendants of Anna van Marseveen, through Elisabeth des Prez, there are two confirmations of an H10 haplogroup, making the possibility of a H1ak1 descendant impossible. The lineages have been checked and rechecked and the documentation correlates to the H10 line being correct.

At this stage, the H1ak1 result, without the evidence of the necessary documentation confirming the link to Elisabeth des Prez, appears to indicate that Cornelia Petronella van Emmenes (also known as Cecilia du Plessis) cannot be the biological offspring of Elisabeth des Prez and the matriarch Cecilia D'Atis.

The matriarch with an H1ak1 haplogroup is Geertruij Helm, SM/PROG, so this will be the most likely biological route of this line.

Naturally, there is a possibility of fosterage, and with the information on Charl Prieur du Plessis, he may very well have impregnated Cornelia Petronella van Emmenes, but that is yet to be established. However, what can be categorically stated, based on the confirming haplogroups, Cornelia cannot be the biological daughter of Elisabeth du Preez, SM.

Not ignoring you - just can't get a long enough space of time to figure out what you're needing.

Cecilia du Plessis's name had been changed to Cornelia Petronella v Emmens. I changed it back.

Hey Sharon,

No stress, I know you are not ignoring me. However, this was more so that the information could reach the numerous people involved in any or all of the profiles. Any of whom could have the documentation we are looking for to confirm the various relationships.

Thanks for all your hard work, I certainly do appreciate it!

:-) I'm trying to figure ... slowly :-)

Re "However, what can be categorically stated, based on the confirming haplogroups, Cornelia cannot be the biological daughter of Elisabeth des Prez, b1 SM."

I don't think this is true. Check me:
Anna Oberholzer is confirmed as H10 (probably H10e) by triangulation of your and Glenda Griffin's tests: You bothconverge on her through two different daughters, thus making your tests 'prove' Anna's DNA.

This doesn't prove who Anna's mother is, though, or that she is descended from Elizabeth des Pres.

I have not had time to process this all yet but I found a problem round the generations of Anna Magdalena Du Plessis and her daughter Anna Magdalena Badenhorst I thought, because of a discrepancy in his and my mtDNA there! I am happy to get this as it will help me try sort out that lot.

On "Cecilia van Marseveen's name had been changed to Cornelia Petronella v Emmens. I changed it back." Thanks for doing that. This was one of the issues that I had as it was seen as the same person, but I could not find any information confirming that change.

Unless I wrote something messed up, which is possible with a late night, Anna Oberholzer is the daughter of Gerrit Willemsz van Wijk and Marie Prevot (see attached baptism record under sources on her profile.

Of course, Marie Prevot, b3c2 is the daughter of Abraham Prevot and Anna van Marseveen.

According to the First Fifty Years project (http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g7/p7494.htm), Elisabeth and Pieter Jansz b. c 1660 only had three children (at least surviving children). They are listed as:

Anna van Marseveen+12 b. c 1690 (aka Anna Oberholzer)
Cecilia van Marseveen+12 b. c 1695
Pieter van Maarseveen+6 b. b 24 Aug 1698, d. b 16 Feb 1721

I believe, therefore, that the mtDNA line (H10: Anna van Wyk - Marie Prevot - Anna van Marseveen - Elisabeth des Prez - Cecilia d'Atis) is well established.

Now, what remains to be established/sorted is Christina Catharina Beukes. Your curator's note does say, "Mother: Kornelia van Emmenes," but of course Geni still has that she is the daughter of daughter of Cecilia du Plessis. This is currently where the hiccough lies.

Any information of evidence of linking Catharina Beukes as a child of Cecilia van Marseveen (this is in dispute), and by extension, Charles Prieur du Plessis (strong possible parentage) is what I am currently trying to find.

What I do know is that a Catharina du Plessis in found in the will of Cornelia van Emme. The will is listed under EMMENES Cornelia VAN - 1770 MOOC 13-1-7 NO. 46. ( http://www.eggsa.org/documents/main.php?g2_itemId=17186). It just does not list the father, besides that provisions were made for her and that she was mentioned in Hendrik Beukes' will.

Glenda Griffin, that would be awesome! Hopefully we can somehow clear this up with a few of us working on it!

Oh, and Sharon Doubell, I should define that my statement "Cornelia cannot be the biological daughter of Elisabeth des Prez" was as a result of the change of Cecilia du Plessis's name to "Cornelia Petronella van Emmenes". My argument was that a Cornelia Petronella van Emmenes was not the daughter of Elizabeth des Prez, instead that a Cecilia van Marseveen was.

Further to this, I updated the Overview, About for Cecilia du Plessis by removing the following information that was in dispute because of the name change to "Cornelia Petronella van Emmenes".

This information may be pertinent to discovering who Christina Catharina Beukes is. Given that Cecilia's name was change to Cornelia, I have to assume that Pamela Debora Perry updated the profile for a reason.

Anyway, the information I did not want to loose is as follows:

"There is record of a Kornelia van Emmenes, but her parents are listed as Albert Gerritse van Emmenes and Catarina van den Bosch. This is supported by the baptism record for a Kornelia van Immenes daughter of Albert van Immenes en Trijntie van den Bos. Furthermore, there is information listed that Catharina du Plessis as, "also known as Catharina van Immenes." http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g8/p8969.htm

However, a different baptism record noted that a Catharina van Emmenes is the child of Gerret van Emmenes en Anna Oosthuijsen. http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g8/p8708.htm
Information stating that she is also known as Cecilia du Plessis has also been noted on Geni, however, this remains unsubstantiated at this point.

Further searching has unearthed a Cornelia du Pres, daughter of Hercules des Prez (b. circa 1702) and Elisabeth Theron.
• The parents of Hercules (1702) are listed as Hercule des Prez (b. 1672, d. 9 May 1721) and Cornelia Maasdorp (Viljoen).
• Elisabeth Theron is the daughter of Jacques Therond and Marie Jeanne des Prez.
• Marie Jeanne's parents Hercules des Prez (b. 1645, d. b 22 Nov 1696) and Cecilia d'Atis (b. 1650, d. 1720). http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/g11/p11365.htm

This Cornelia du Pres (also written as du Press and daughter of Hercules des Prez and Elisabeth Theron) married Michiel Johan Christoph Vaatke on 9 November 1749 Drakenstein, but cannot find any issue from that marriage just yet."

It's very important that you guys are doing this. Don't stop :-) I'll try to find time to assist whet you need it..

Christina Catharina Beukes is no longer a child of Cecilia du Plessis.

I created a new Cornelia Smit, SM. Can't find the old one yet to merge into her.

Found - merged the line back to Geertruij Helm, SM/PROG

Good job! Sorry I have not had much time for this over the last while, but glad you were able to sort. With the likely H1ak1 mtDNA match to Geertruij Helm, SM/PROG, this certainly seems a far more accurate line now.

Please take a look at the Dr Coetzee research as well. This family was corrected so many times. The parents of Cecilia van Marseveen was coorrect, but so many merges goes into this family as about every family in South Africa is linked to Du Plessis. Thank you for the help etc. My time are a little tight with family and personal stuff at the moment.

J

What does it say, Judi?