Eleanor of Castile, Queen consort of England - too many children?

Started by Ard van Bergen on Tuesday, August 28, 2018
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8/28/2018 at 7:04 AM

Yesterday I happened to visit Caernarfon Castle, where as part of the permanent exhibition there was a description of Eleanore's life
One detail I noted that it said that there were 16 known pregnancies and only six children that survived her. Here I see 19 children listed so presumably three of them are fictional.

8/28/2018 at 8:51 AM

Can you correct data online?

8/28/2018 at 8:54 AM

This is just according to Wikipedia, but apparently there are often four extra daughters named as Eleanor's in some "antiquarian" genealogies that have no basis in historical fact. These daughters are: Juliana, Euphemia, Beatrice, and Blanche. However, the stillborn daughter born while her parents were on Crusade is sometimes given the name Juliana, even though there's no contemporary evidence of her name. The Juliana currently attached to Eleanor's profile appears to be that same stillborn daughter.
That leaves Beatrice, Blanche, and Euphemia, and it seems both Beatrice and Blanche are listed on Eleanor's geni profile. Both Beatrice and Blanche should probably be removed then.
The other additional child appears to be either Isabella or Alice Plantagenet. Eleanor had no daughter by either name. She had one daughter who was born and died between December 1277/January 1278 and January 1278 whose name as not been recorded. The profiles for Isabella and Alice say that both girls were born in 1279, but Eleanor had a daughter named Mary of Woodstock born then, so that's impossible.
I think the fake profiles are: Beatrice, Blanche, and then Isabella and Alice, with either Isabella or Alice perhaps being confused for the daughter who died young in 1277/1278. Neither name should be used for the daughter who died in 1277/1278 however. Hope this makes sense!

8/28/2018 at 5:17 PM

According to Medlands there were 16 children born to the couple.
6 Stillborn Daughter Plantagenet;
1 Katherine Plantagenet;
5 Eleanor of England, Countess of Bar;
2 Princess Joan Plantagenet;
3 John Plantagenet;
4 Henry Plantagenet;
Juliana Plantagenet;
7 Joan of Acre;
8 Alphonso, Earl of Chester;
10 Margaret of England;
11 Berengaria Plantagenet;
12 Mary of Woodstock (Plantagenet), Nun of Amesbury;
9 Isabella Plantagenet;
Alice Plantagenet;
Son Plantagenet;
13 Elizabeth of Rhuddlan, Countess of Hereford;
14 Edward II of England;
15 Beatrice Plantagenet
16 Blanche Plantagenet

Having taken the list of children currently linked to the profile I numbered those listed in Medlands and the ones remaining (with no number) are:
Juliana
Alice
Son

If as Emily suggests Juliana was the stillborn daughter that then leaves Alice and the un-named son as the probable fake profiles.

8/28/2018 at 8:52 PM

The information that I am posting here, comes from the book, titled ": Britain's Royal Families: The Complete Genealogy:, by Alison Weir. Alison Weir spent over 22 years doing the research for this book.

The issue of the marriage of ELEANOR of CASTILE and EDFWARD 1 KING of ENGLAND is as follows.from page 82.
1 ELEANOR, born c.17 June 1264 or ass late as 1269. Died 12 October 1298 at Ghent and is buried in Westminster Cathedral.
2 JOAN. was born in the summer of 1265, she died before 7 September 1265 in France and buried in Westminster Abbey.
3. JOHN

8/28/2018 at 9:11 PM

I seem to be having trouble trying to reply to the above post. I will try again, starting with JOHN.
3 JOHN. Born 10 June, 1266. He died 1 or 3 August 1271/2. He is buried in Westminster Abbey.
4. HENRY. Born 13th July 1267/8. He died 14th October, 1274.
5. Alice No birthdate but the Harleian MSS said that she died at the age of 12.. Some historians have identified her with the child born to the King and Queen in March 1279, but this cannot be correct as that infant's funeral at Westminster Abbey took place during the same year. (see ISABELLA below).
6 JULIANA or KATHERINE. She was born in 1271 at Acre in Palestine and died there on 28th May or 5th September. She is perhaps the daughter buried in the Church of the Friars Preachers, Bordeaux, Gascony.
7. JOAN. She was born in the Spring, 1272 at Acre, palistine. Joan died 23rd April, 1307, at her manor of Clare, Suffolk and was buried in the Priory Church of the Austin Friars, Clare, Suffolk.
8. ALFONSO. He was born 24th November, 1273. He was perhaps designated Earl of Chester in 1284. He died 14 or 19 August, 1284 at Windsor Castle and buried in Westminster Abbey.
9. MARGARET. was born 11 September 1275 at Windsor Castle. MARGARET died in 1318, and is buried in the Collegiate Church of St Gudule, Brussels.
10. BERENGARIA or BERENICE3. Born in 1276 at Kempton Palace, Surrey, and died between 1276 and 1279 and buried in Westminster Abbey.
11. MARY

8/28/2018 at 9:13 PM

CONTINUING:
11. MARY. was born 11th March or 22nd April 1278, at Windsor Castle. She died before 8th July, 1332 at Amesbury Abbey where she is buried.
12. ISABELLA

8/28/2018 at 9:51 PM

I seem to be having trouble trying to reply to the above post. I will try again, starting with JOHN.
3 JOHN. Born 10 June, 1266. He died 1 or 3 August 1271/2. He is buried in Westminster Abbey.
4. HENRY. Born 13th July 1267/8. He died 14th October, 1274.
5. Alice No birthdate but the Harleian MSS said that she died at the age of 12.. Some historians have identified her with the child born to the King and Queen in March 1279, but this cannot be correct as that infant's funeral at Westminster Abbey took place during the same year. (see ISABELLA below).
6 JULIANA or KATHERINE. She was born in 1271 at Acre in Palestine and died there on 28th May or 5th September. She is perhaps the daughter buried in the Church of the Friars Preachers, Bordeaux, Gascony.
7. JOAN. She was born in the Spring, 1272 at Acre, palistine. Joan died 23rd April, 1307, at her manor of Clare, Suffolk and was buried in the Priory Church of the Austin Friars, Clare, Suffolk.
8. ALFONSO. He was born 24th November, 1273. He was perhaps designated Earl of Chester in 1284. He died 14 or 19 August, 1284 at Windsor Castle and buried in Westminster Abbey.
9. MARGARET. was born 11 September 1275 at Windsor Castle. MARGARET died in 1318, and is buried in the Collegiate Church of St Gudule, Brussels.
10. BERENGARIA or BERENICE3. Born in 1276 at Kempton Palace, Surrey, and died between 1276 and 1279 and buried in Westminster Abbey.
11. MARY was born on 11th March or 22nd April, 1278 at Windsor Castle. She died before 8th July, 1332 at Amesbury Abbey, where she is buried. Mary was a nun.
12. ISABELLA. was born 12 march, 1279. She died in 1279 and buried at Westminster Abbey.
13. ELIZABETH was born in August 1282, at Rhuddlan Castle, Flintshire, Wales. Elizabeth died on c 5th May, 1316 during childbirth, at Quendon, Essex and buried at Walden Abbey, Essex
14. EDWARD 11 was born 25th April, 1284 at Caernarvon Castle, Wales. He was murdered on 21 September, 1327 and is buried at Gloucester Cathedral.
15. BEATRICE. She was born after August, 1286. She died young.
16 BLANCHE was born in 1289/90 and died young.

I hope that this has been of some help.

8/29/2018 at 5:11 PM

I have a question...are there more than one Eleanor? I found two that I am related to and they have two different birth dates and death dates.

8/29/2018 at 9:12 PM

Are you thinking of Eleanor of England, Queen Consort of Castile? She was the daughter of Henri II & Eleanor of Aquitaine

8/29/2018 at 9:15 PM

Are you thinking of Eleanor of England, Queen Consort of Castile? She was the daughter of Henri II & Eleanor of Aquitaine

8/30/2018 at 12:07 AM

So you're suggesting to delete Alice Plantagenet and Son Plantagenet, and merge Juliana Plantagenet to "stillborn daughter" ?
All these have birth dates, and Juliana is inconsistent with "stillborn daughter", so I think all 3 are up for deletion.

I see no reason not to do that at the moment.
(tagging so as to make them show up in the left hand column)

8/30/2018 at 5:56 AM

Thank you all for the contributions to this discussion. Based on the analysis of Terry Jackson (Switzer) and the recommendation of Harald Tveit Alvestrand I have deleted Alice, Juliana and the unnamed son.
They can of course still be restored if someone comes up with convincing evidence about their existence

9/2/2018 at 7:38 AM

Sorry to reopen this conversation, but I'm looking at Sara Cockerill's biography of Eleanor published in 2014 that lists the following children with dates:
1. Unknown female child 1 (1255)
2. Katherine (1261-1264)
3. John (1265)
4. John (1266-1271)
5. Henry (1268-1274)
6. Eleanor (1269-1298)
7. Unknown female child 2 (1271) She is given the name Juliana in false genealogies
8. Joan (1272-1307)
9. Alphonso (1273-1284)
10. Margaret (1275-1333)
11. Berengaria (1276-1278)
12. Mary (1279-1332)
13. Unknown male child (1281)
14. Elizabeth (1282-1316)
15. Edward (1284-1327)

So again, Blanche and Beatrice are unattested. I believe they should be removed.

Besides that, it seems the geni profile is missing the unknown female child stillborn in 1271 (called Juliana sometimes) and the unknown child stillborn in 1281 (the gender of this child seems unclear, with the biography saying it was male and Wikipedia saying it was female).

I think we should replace Blanche and Beatrice with those two stillbirths, and then we would have the correct information up.

9/2/2018 at 7:40 AM

Also, typo at child 3: I said the child's name was John (1265), but it was actually Joan in the biography's genealogical tables!

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