Elizabeth Raven-Hop Moytoy, Raven's Sister - Name and family of "Sister of Raven" wife of John "Trader" Vann

Started by Kathryn Forbes on Monday, August 13, 2018
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8/13/2018 at 6:39 AM

There is no “Elizabeth Raven-Hop Moytoy” she is a myth created by Don Green. The family of this woman is unknown, although she was of the Ani-gatagewi (Blind Savannah/Wild Potato) clan. Researchers James Hicks and John Strange both refer to her as “Sister of Raven,” and Strange also says that her name was “Ailsey” or “Alcey”; neither provides any source for this information. [Shadburn and Strange, “Upon Our Ruins,” Cottonpatch Press, Cumings, GA. 2012. p. 394] “Sister of Raven” seems to be an assumption based on the fact that Bernard Hughes was warned of trouble by his Cherokee wife and then sent to the Raven of Hiwassee for assistance when his trading post was attacked by angry Cherokee in 1751. [Corkran, David. “The Cherokee Frontier.” University of Oklahoma Press, Norman, 1962. p. 26] Regardless of her actual name and family, documents show that she had children by at least three early white traders, Bernard Hughes, John Vann, and David Rowe, and possibly a Cherokee man as well. Creek agent Benjamin Hawkins noted in 1797 that he had made the acquaintance of “old Mrs. Roe, near 80, the mother of these men [David Rowe and John Vann]”. [Foster, Howard, ed. “The Collected Works of Benjamin Hawkins.” University of Alabama Press, Tuscaloosa, 2010. p. 22.] John Howard Payne recorded a story about James Vann which included the information that Charles Hughes was his mother’s [half] brother, [Anderson, Brown, Rogers, eds., “The Payne-Butrick Papers.” University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln, 2010. Vol. 1, pp. 144-116] and Tiya Miles confirmed that Sallie Hughes Waters a half-sister. [“Sally [Hughes] Waters’ position as James Vann’s aunt was confirmed by Cherokee historian and genealogist Jack Baker (conversation with Tiya Miles, July 2008, Springplace, GA) Miles, Tiya. “The House at Diamond Hill.” University of North Carolina Press, 2010. p. 52, Note 4.]

Although she must have been born in the 1720’s, she was still alive in 1819 when her daughter War-li was baptized by Moravian missionaries. “ On March 14 [1819] Mother Vann was baptized... It was just a pity that her own, still living very old and weak mother could not also have been present; then there would have been five generations together.” [Crews & Starbuck, eds. “Records of the Moravians Among the Cherokees,” Cherokee Heritage Press, Tahlequah, OK. 2013, Vol. 5, pp. 2324-2325]
The Moravians referred to John, War-li, and Betty Vann as siblings.

Her documented children are:
By Bernard Hughes: James, Charles, and Sarah
By John Vann: John “Cherokee” Vann, Wa-li, and Betty
By _________ Rowe: Richard and David

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8/13/2018 at 6:44 AM

Seems to me I recall being on the fringes of this tangle, sorting out the British Loyalist Thomas Waters from the (mostly Patriot) Philemon Waters clan.

It was the Loyalist who got involved with Sallie, and he was *not* related to the Philemons.

8/13/2018 at 7:01 AM

Yes that's correct. Sallie 'married' Thomas Waters, their son was George Morgan Waters.

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