Rurik, Founder of the Rurikid Dynasty - Genealogy of Rurik

Started by Alex Moes on Saturday, July 28, 2018
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7/28/2018 at 8:04 PM

There is a very active discussion of Rurik's genetics currently going on, I would like to start a complimentary discussion focusing on Rurik's genealogy.

Modern DNA cannot tell us about ancient genealogy, nor can cultural or archaeological studies. Only written sources focus down to such a fine personal resolution to define genealogical relationships.

While discussions of these other topics are interesting Geni is a genealogical website so the rest is an interesting distraction.

So questions:

A) who was Rurik's father? No source that I am aware of names a father, people trying to conflate Rurik with other men (eg Rorik of Dorested) often end up assigning fathers to Rurik but this is a house of cards not a sourced genealogy.

B) who was Rurik's mother? Tatishchev claimed that the Ioachim Chronicle named Rurik's mother Umila. Umila and her immediate family are described, this tree is present on Geni but not currently connected to Rurik's profile.

C) who was Rurik's wife? No wife is mentioned in the Primary Chronicle, Tatishchev claimed that the Ioachim Chronicle named one wife Efanda, stating that her brother was Oleg, and that she was the mother of Igor. Tatishchev also claimed that the Ioachim Chronicle referred to another wife, without naming her, and that this woman had a daughter by Rurik (also unnamed).

D) who was Rurik's successor? Oleg is named in the Primary Chronicle as Rurik's "kinsman" (at least that is the common English translation). Oleg is sometimes linked to Rurik as the brother of Rurik's wife (Efanda) but what is the source of this link?

Have I missed any family members, made an erroneous statement, over looked a source? Please correct my misunderstandings and help to improve this portion of the World Family Tree.

7/29/2018 at 3:54 PM

Нестор: В год 6370 (862). Изгнали варяг за море, и не дали им дани, и начали сами собой владеть, и не было среди них правды, и встал род на род, и была у них усобица, и стали воевать друг с другом. И сказали себе: „Поищем себе князя, который бы владел нами и судил по праву». И пошли за море к варягам, к руси. Те варяги назывались русью, как другие называются шведы, а иные норманны и англы, а еще иные готландцы, – вот так и эти. Сказали руси чудь, словене, кривичи и весь: „Земля наша велика и обильна, а порядка в ней нет. Приходите княжить и владеть нами». И избрались трое братьев со своими родам, и взяли с собой всю русь, и пришли, и сел старший, Рюрик, в Новгороде, а другой, Синеус, – на Белоозере, а третий, Трувор, – в Изборске. И от тех варягов прозвалась Русская земля. Новгородцы же – те люди от варяжского рода, а прежде были словене. Через два же года умерли Синеус и брат его Трувор. И принял всю власть один Рюрик, и стал раздавать мужам своим города – тому Полоцк, этому Ростов, другому Белоозеро. Варяги в этих городах – находники, а коренное население в Новгороде – словене, в Полоцке – кривичи, в Ростове – меря, в Белоозере – весь, в Муроме – мурома, и над теми всеми властвовал Рюрик.

7/29/2018 at 3:58 PM

Братья Рюрика - Синеус и Трувор

7/29/2018 at 4:43 PM

Татищев: Буривой, имея тяжкую войну с варягами, неоднократно побеждал их. Наконец побежден был, всех своих воинов погубил, едва сам спасся. Варяги же, тотчас пришедшие, град Великий и прочие захватили и дань тяжелую возложили на славян, русь и чудь. Люди же, терпевшие тяготу великую от варяг, послали к Буривою, испросить у него сына Гостомысла, чтобы княжил в Великом граде. И когда Гостомысл принял власть, тотчас варягов изгнал, и дань варягам отказался платить, заключил с варягами мир, и стала тишина по всей земле.

7/29/2018 at 4:46 PM

. Гостомысл имел четыре сына и три дочери. Сыновья его или на войнах убиты, или в дому умерли, и не осталось ни единого его сына, а дочери выданы были соседним князьям в жены.

2/27/2020 at 10:27 AM

I would like to refine my presentation as follows: 02.27.2020

Current genetic information from known RURIK descendants indicates that the origin of the N-haplo group in Europe is of the N-family of Finnish origin. This is clear when you follow the phylogenetic chronological pathway of mutations (although about 28,000 YBP from the beginning of the N-haplo group). And therefore, this chronology could help in determining where and in what area. The haploid group leading to Rurik-Clan has been around 500 to 1000 years before the time).
This mutation occurred prior to the N-Y 4338 * to Y-4339 mutation of the Rurik genetic gene.
I think the old chronicles and stories around this thing are, by accident, colored and do not correspond to the state of the art - you understand.
In my opinion, GENI Genealogy has also understood the importance of genetic research. yDNA paternal continuity .. And for that reason, I would hope that refinements should also be made to the GENI profile of the founder of RURIK, as the N-haplogroup of the Rurik generation is very well known. If someone claims to be another haplo group, for example, there is a clear mistake in their thinking. Rurik- The father line will NOT change. It does not change even if the language spoken changes or the current language of the nation-states in the present. Also, Rurik's ancestor's yDNA is a paternal lineage in the phylogeny of Puusa, and can be seen if you know even some of the genetic lineage.
It is completely wrong to say that two paternal lines would leave Ruriki. That is an impossible argument. When the path I presented earlier comes from the group of Finnish-born men to L550-> Y4338, etc.
The haploid group cannot jump to another group because the paternal line is warped
 - mutation - always goes back to the previous one and continues chronologically all the way to the present and beyond.
In Europe, for example, the origin is the N-haplo group of Finns.
Therefore, I respectfully suggest that modern scientific yDNA information should also be used to define this Rurik lineage. This is a fact of inheritance. For such real information, the purposes of the chroniclers are not sufficient.

I make the following small addition to the inaccurate statement made with regard to the N-haplo group.
Here is my suggestion to correct the information read:

However, there is evidence that the Rurikids fatherline yDNA has been investigated (source - FamilyTree - BigY + YFull analysis): - On the basis of the current known generations of Rurikids, the paternal lineage has been found to be Finnic Lineage, that is, the paternal line before RURIK and Rurkids (the so-called PRE RURIK lineage is a lineage of Finnish origin).
- Starting with N - haplogroup> L1026 - V29 continuing to N-L550 and Y4338 * + Y4339 ... This mutation Y4338 * is genetically of the Rurik-Clan Ancestral Lineage, possibly mutated in the region of Karelia-Finland or Sweden at about 3000 YBP (It is a Lineage of the N Group of the Baltic Sea Region). "

I hope the curator will contact the genealogists of the GENI genealogy community who can understand the significance of my presentation.
I will supplement it if necessary.
Sorry for my long explanation.
All the best
Seppo Liukko

2/27/2020 at 2:17 PM

Действительно, у большинства современных людей, считающих себя потомками Рюрика Y-DNA N1c1 (условно финская), но у другой части современных людей, считающих себя потомками Рюрика Y-DNA R1a1 (условна славянская)! Предположительно, это результат супружеской неверности жены Владимира Мономаха! Какой Y-DNA был у ее мужа, а какой у любовников неизвестно! Арифметически этот вопрос не решается! От мужа у нее могло быть меньше детей, чем от других мужчин!

Indeed, most modern people who consider themselves descendants of Rurik Y-DNA N1c1 (conditionally Finnish), but the other part of modern people who consider themselves descendants of Rurik Y-DNA R1a1 (conditionally Slavic)! Presumably, this is the result of infidelity of Vladimir Monomakh's wife! What Y-DNA her husband had, and what the lovers have is unknown! Arithmetically, this question is not solved! She could have had fewer children with her husband than with other men!

2/27/2020 at 2:43 PM

Более трети мужчин проживающих на северо-западе России имеют Финский Y-DNA N1c1. Говорят они на русском языке и считают себя русскими! Славяно-финский этногенез в северо-западном регионе современной России начался в 7 веке, а Рюрик родился в 9 веке!

More than a third of men living in the North-West of Russia have Finnish Y-DNA N1c1. Russian Russian is spoken by them and they consider themselves to be Russian! Slavic-Finnish ethnogenesis in the North-Western region of modern Russia began in the 7th century, and Rurik was born in the 9th century!

2/27/2020 at 4:15 PM

The profile currently states: "Rurik's genetic heritage, N1c1, is typical of Finnish people however this does not mean that he himself was from the area now known as Finland."

I agree that this could be written more clearly, but i don't think talk of possible mutations 3000 years ago is clearing things up :)

How about: "Genetic studies of the descendants of Rurik (male line Rurikid) show a Finnic (N1c1) Lineage indicating a presence in the region of Karelia-Finland or Sweden at about 3000 years before present."

2/27/2020 at 8:48 PM

was born in Ukraine, my mother is Ukrainian, my grandfather, the father of my biological father, was most likely Russian by nationality, but according to the results of the autosomal DNA, I probably had someone in the family from Finland, a lot of coincidences with people from Finland. I'm probably also from the Rurik clan. This is cool!!!

2/27/2020 at 10:18 PM

Русский историк Василий Татищев в своей книге, изданной в 1768 году, написал, что Князь Новгородский Рюрик был сыном вождя одного из финских племен, женатого на славянке! Татищев не мог знать, что у большинства современных потомков Рюрика будет обнаружена финская Y-DNA! В то время люди ошибочно верили, что Рюрик был потомком Римского Императора Августа! Читайте книги Василия Татищева!

The Russian historian Vasily Tatishchev wrote in his book published in 1768 that Prince Rurik of Novgorod was the son of a chief of one of the Finnish tribes who was married to a Slavic woman! Tatishchev could not have known that most of Rurik's modern descendants would have the Finnish Y-DNA detected! At that time, people mistakenly believed that Rurik was a descendant of the Roman Emperor Augustus! Read books by Vasily Tatishchev!

2/27/2020 at 11:35 PM
Private User
2/29/2020 at 8:36 AM

According to Vasili Tatishchev, who lived in the 18th century, the Rus's (Rus, Rusi) came from Finland and were of Finnish origin. Tatishchev later based his knowledge on the lost Chronicle of Joakim. Catherine II also came to the same conclusion in her own historical research.

Viktor Paranin has suggested that the "homeland" of the Rus would have been the Karelian Isthmus and the Russians were Baltic Sea Finns . Håkon Stang from the University of Oslo, in his study Naming of Russia (p. 274), thinks that the name Rusi derives from the Baltic Sea word brown, which means red in the eastern languages ​​(cf. Finnish dawn, Ruska, Rusko) The theory is supported by the upper class Karelian and Finnish noblemen of Ladoga and Castlecloth and Novgorod, who used to wear red, purple or russia (Rossia). The old name of Karelia and Käkisalmi comes from "Korela" which is a variant of Kaleva, the Kalevans. Kaleva means red in the languages ​​of Karelia and Kainuu.

In the Soviet Union, and later in Russia, either the western origin of the Russians or their influence on Russian history (the so-called anti-Norman school) has often been questioned. Over the decades, Russian scientists have come up with several alternative theories about the name of the Russians and the origin of the Russians, which Western research does not consider to be realistic.

The most common of these is the claim that the Russians were Slavs from the west or south of the Baltic Sea. Nowadays, Russian research mostly no longer denies Finnish influence.

(In addition, the Swedes have also had divergent opinions on the subject, that are so much associated with race/eugenics, so I will not go there further on that subject in this context.)

In Estonian, Russia is "Venemaa", which should be considered in Finnish, since this name includes the nature of history, "the land of boats. Vene=Boat, Land=maa. The most common, and also known to us is that 'Russia', 'ryss', etc.,
Belarus is an old Baltic lands that became Slavic in the 9th century AD. when the Slavs began to come north and east of Poland.

The Varygians were Finnish Vikings who founded the Kingdom of Kiev, which later became Russ(ian). So the Russ(ians) were Finns.
The Slavs pleaded with the Varyagic Russ(ians) to be their ruler because they could not cope with their quarrels.

Three brothers were chosen for the position: Rurik, Truvor and Sineus. They sailed eastward with their entourage and established the Novgorod Empire, ruled by Rurik in 862, the eldest of the brothers, after the death of their brothers. Rurik died in 879. The land ruled by the Russians was named Rusland, which then became Ryssland. Rurik's relative Oleg Wise took power in Kiev in 882. The city on the Dnieper became the core of what was then "Russia", or rather Kievan Rus, before it was destroyed by the Mongols in 1240. Later, the territory of Ukraine was dominated by Lithuanians, Poles and Russians. Cossack power was greatest in the 16th century.

The Sagas tells of the Slavic slave trade flourishing between the Curonians/Kurs https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuurit and Baltic Finns at the turn of the millennium, the Göeaths also traded the Slavs.

It is important to remember that the Slavs did not spread until later with Russian imperialism to Inkeri, Karelia, etc. Slavs also did not spread to the north until the end of the 15th century and there were no Slavs on the shores of the Gulf of Finland before the 18th century.

2/29/2020 at 11:04 AM

Это ужасная ложь и бред! Русский язык является славянским языком! Археологические раскопки подтверждают наличие славянских городов и крепостей в этом регионе с 7 века! Поселки финских рыбаков и охотников были небольших размеров! Финские племена в то время вели архаичный образ жизни! Каким богам поклонялись древние финны? Какие города они построили? Какие страны они основали? Когда у финнов появилась письменность?

This is a terrible lie and nonsense! Russian is a Slavic language! Archaeological excavations confirm the presence of Slavic cities and fortresses in this region since the 7th century! The Finnish towns of fishermen and hunters were small in size! Finnish tribes at that time led an archaic way of life! What gods were worshipped by the ancient Finns? What cities did they build? What countries did they establish? When did the Finns get writing?

2/29/2020 at 11:23 AM

Древнейший текст написанный кириллицей на финском языке найден в Новгороде и датируется 13 веком!
The oldest text written in Cyrillic in Finnish was found in Novgorod and dates back to the 13th century!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birch_bark_letter_no._292

2/29/2020 at 11:40 AM

В Новгороде и других древних русских городах археологи нашли более 1100 древних бытовых текстов, написанных на русском языке (славянском языке), которые датируются 11-13 веками!
Russian Russian archaeologists have found more than 1,100 ancient everyday texts written in Russian (Slavic) in Novgorod and other ancient Russian cities that date back to the 11th-13th centuries!
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Берестяные_грамоты

3/1/2020 at 9:05 AM

Hello Alex,
(you are the curator of the profile of the founder of the Rurik-Dynasty)

 I hope that what I have put forward can be substantively revised.
Because I think you have the wrong idea / conclusion in the text below:

Alex text:
"Modern DNA cannot tell us about ancient Genealogy, nor can cultural or Archaeological studies. Only written sources focus on such a fine personal resolution to define Genealogical relationships."
- This is not OK.

A little more clarification:
I understand that a traditional genealogist cannot provide enough information on what yDNA / genetic genealogy means (which is quite common - so not personal Alex). And what can yDNA genetic research provide for more information if traditional genealogy does not provide sufficient (or incorrect) information.

I have already said here in the debate (twice) - why this Rurik family and so-called. the origin of founder Rurkik can be genetically verified (yDNA) in his posterity.
There really is no need to know the name of the father or mother, as you mentioned in traditional genealogy, the idea is that of the father and mother.

WHY NOT NEEDED?
If the Descendants are well known, as the ecclesiastical genealogy has, these RURIKIDS - The Descendants are well saved (princes).
When the genetics of posterity are well-known by modern paternal lineage research, then this ancestor will surely be on the same yDNA pathway, with a few mutations apart, back to YBP.

I assume GENi and MyHeritage know this very well. Because these genealogy pages now have DNA comparisons. Then you probably know that it is possible for posterity to recognize the ancestor very accurately. NOW is the RURIKIDS offspring genetics of the N-haplo group, which means the offspring of the Finno-Ugric (European N-group).

Specified is the Ruriklan, whose group mutations are in chronological order in the Phylogenetic tree. This mutation sequence indicates that after mutations in Finnic Savo-Karelia population groups, V29, L550 and branch RURIK-CLAN, designated yDNA with sea tags N-Y4338 / Y4339, will occur in the N group. RURIKIDS (Descendants) are in this group.

The ancestors of the Rurik-Clan and Rurikids paternal lineages are Finnic males of the N-haplo group. This is clearly evident from the Phylogenetic tree of the N-haplogroup (Do you need to supply such a tree, or would the GENI community have this information?).

Mutations of the Father Line of well-known Rurikids are still present in all modern Rurikids and other individuals belonging to the RURIK-Clan.
This lineage has already been elucidated, as the names of the Rurikids for generations are known.
All descendants of the founder of the Rurik dynasty have an N-haploid group and mutation markings on the N-L550> Y4338 * yDNA measurement.
This is a fact, and I therefore suggest that my additions and sources previously provided would justify a change in the LOCKED Rurik information. In particular, I propose a change to the English version. If we want the scientific basis of today, and the source of information would not be the mere mention of very old chronicles.
At least this would be a necessary addition - in my opinion.

Buddies. Regards, Seppo Liukko 1.3.2020

Private User
3/1/2020 at 9:25 AM

I have to post this. (to all of thoose against suggested changes).

Historical negationism, also called denialism, is a distortion of the historical record.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_negationism

3/1/2020 at 12:00 PM

Не все современные мужчины, считающие себя потомками Рюрика, имеют Y-DNA N1c1 (условно финский)!
Многочисленные потомки Рюрика не считали себя финнами и не знали финского языка! У Рюрика было несколько жен! Единственный известный его сын Игорь родился, незадолго до его смерти! Где доказательство того, что Рюрик действительно был биологическим отцом Игоря?

Not all modern men who consider themselves descendants of Rurik have Y-DNA N1c1 (conditionally Finnish)!
Numerous descendants of Rurik did not consider themselves Finns and did not know the Finnish language! Rurik had several wives! His only known son, Igor, was born shortly before his death! Where is the proof that Rurik really was Igor's biological father?

Private User
3/1/2020 at 1:38 PM

DNA do not care about language, but people do. DNA does not either care about what ethnic affiliation you profess or think you've, but people do. There must be a hugh amount of russian males who have a straight Y-DNA that identifies them as Finno-Ugric and that without any of them have to be able to talk or understand a single word in Finnish...

Finnish language is an Uralic language and it came in with people from Siberia (Russia), and that's it. Not quite, ca. 500 B.C. the language came in from Estonia to Finland, but other people already had samic language in the northern eastern parts of Finland so in fact, the Finnish language have been mixed, but not only with Uralic langues, also other languages have contributed, just as many other language does over time, or get extinct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnic_languages

3/1/2020 at 2:27 PM

Безусловно, финский язык был широко распространен в древней Новгородской земле! В настоящее время в северо-западном регионе России более трети мужчин имеют финский Y-DNA N1c1. Сохранилось огромное количество финских названий населенных пунктов, рек и озер! Русский народ образовался в процессе этногенеза славян, финнов и шведов!

Of course, the Finnish language was widely spoken in the ancient Novgorod land! Currently, in the North-Western region of Russia, more than a third of men have Finnish Y-DNA N1c1. A huge number of Finnish names of localities, rivers and lakes have been preserved! The Russian people were formed in the process of ethnogenesis of Slavs, Finns and Swedes!

3/1/2020 at 4:07 PM

Seppo I.T. Liukko (Hillberg) I have responded to you in the other thread https://www.geni.com/discussions/207771?msg=1370292 please do not put the same post in multiple threads.

3/2/2020 at 4:12 AM

Alexander Evgenievich Eliseev, A couple of refinements for you:

Fact:
The language of a person / nation can change, but the language does not change the genome (DNA).
In the Russian territory, Finno-Ugric (f-u) languages ​​are the language spoken by the indigenous population. This language has come from Asia across the Ural Mountains to Europe with Finnish (FINNIC) males (yDNA being an N-haplo group). Finnic (f-u language) male genetics - the paternal lineage was the yDNA-N haplogroup. The N-haplo group has been separated from the NO group already in Asia about 28000 years ago (see phylogenetic chronological tree).
This so-called. the extensive area stretched from Lake Baikal to the Baltic Sea (including Finland-Novgorod-Baltic-Scandinavia), the original extensive sparsely populated area.
This ancient population practiced pagan religions, until almost the 13th century.
But religion has nothing to do with heredity or human intelligence. The lineage remains even if the language changes.
Finno-Ugric (f-u) the language has changed, for example. In Russian territory, when the Slavic population began to arrive in sufficient numbers to Russia / Novgorod region, which was an area of ​​native Finnic (language fu - Finnic), where, according to historical archeology, Slavic migrations only came after AD 700.
The reason for the change of language in Russia was when the Slavic Church was chosen as the common language of the church around AD 850-900. According to Nestor's Chronicle, the Novgorod State was in the process of establishing three Finnic and two Slavic populations.
The language of the Finnic (Finnic f-u language) population slowly changed until about the 1700s. And it is still changing, as in the Baltics.
NOTE. Human genes do not change because of language or religion or anything else. Peoples die extinct, even if their original language changes, etc., they continue to live in a new community for a variety of reasons.
Finnic- N-haplogroup men the spread of this finnic-urals languages. That has been found in a multinational genetics / languages study published on 12/2018, I place this source as a more secure guarantee, link> https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018...

Best Rigards Seppo Liukko

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