Rurik, Founder of the Rurikid Dynasty - Rurik probably had Finnish roots

Внимание! У меня есть полные тексты Татищева и Нестора в удобном для электронного перевода формате! Могу переслать всем желающим на электронную почту!
Attention! I have the full texts of Tatishchev and Nestor in a convenient format for electronic translation! I can send to everyone by e-mail!

alex-ru-spb@mail.ru

Dear Saga!

Please show us all the references - and not some links to pages from extreme Right wing "Sannfinländare" which have been on display here previously [claiming for example that Finnveden in Småland was...ehhhh.. FINNISH! :):):)]

We have heard here that there was no Iron age in Svealand. No Nordic Bronze age and that everything started with the Goths and Svear being united in a kingdom around 1100 AD....

That is a completely outrageous. Last week I was at Atenum and admired the paintings depicting the Kalevala - wonderful place. This week I read that we Swedes should give up Tegnér!! Outrageous!

So give us all some scientific links about what you are claiming - I will read with interest.

1. Please give us the names and the scientific evidence of the Kings and the Kingdoms. Real links to Bona Fide scientific journals.
2. Please give us the references to articles (scientific!) showing what you claim about presence for 6000 years plus "the oldest people in Europe" [...are we on Candid Camera??] Of course you know that Germanic tribes entered the Nordic countries some 10 000 years ago?

3. Tell us also (with scientific articles) in what way the original Finns came to the present area all the way from Asia - or do you contest all Finnish science on that one too?

I understand that you and other Finns are unhappy over the betrayel of Per-Albin Hansson during WWII - when you were expecting some 250 000 Swedish troops to come to your assistance in that very hard time, and instead Sweden did NIL. I am 100% with you on that - but please do not support the totally unscientiifc, unfounded and complete fantasies about that the Germanic tribes had no Bronze age and no Iron age in the Nordic countries.

Alexander!
I just mailed you about the texts you are offering
Best regards
Amir

The Primary Chronicle is freely available in English in various formats here: https://archive.org/details/TheRussianPrimaryChronicle

Alexander Eliseev you said:

>All known descendants of Rurik the male line have the same Y-DNA N1c1-Y10931 (a special separate group)!
All known descendants of some particular male who cannot be identified in any way by DNA other than the fact that he existed.

>Their common ancestor they called the Rurik, which under this name is mentioned in the ancient texts!
Did they take the name from the text or did the author of the text use the name because it was the name claimed by his contemporaries? The "ancient texts" are not primary sources, we have to call this common ancestor something and Rurik is fine but this does not mean that the story related in the Primary Chronicle is factual.

>Unfortunately, the passport of Rurik, issued to him in life, archaeologists have not found!
Rurik would not have had a passport in his lifetime, most probably he would have been illiterate and even if not the odds of a paper document surviving from that era is extremely low. Also passports were not invented until the 1400s :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passport

Guðbjörn Ívar Kjartansson you asked:

>In "the tale of Ragnars sons" was there a mantioning of Sigurd " snake in the eye" to have had a son named Helgi? And could he be same as Oleg?

The only Helgi mentioned in http://www.germanicmythology.com/FORNALDARSAGAS/ThattrRagnarsSonar.... is Helgi "the Sharp" Hvassi who marries the daughter of Sigurd Snake-Eye (Aslaug Sigurdsdatter)

The name Oleg does not appear in that saga in either the Old Norse or English versions.

People often try to link Rurik and Ragnar's families genealogically here on Geni and it is popular also on many internet web sites. It is not unreasonable to assume there was a connection, but direct evidence of such a link is never presented when asked for.

See also https://www.geni.com/projects/Theroised-husbands-of-Umila-potential...

Sorry, Helgi "the Sharp", King of Ringerike
No mention of any connection to Kievan Rus

I am only quoting the text in this Finnish link:

"Connections Across the Sea – Swedish-style Grave Mounds

The approximately forty shallow grave mounds found in Untamala are unique, since similar ones can only be found in Kansankoulunmäki in Laitila in Finland. The eastern Swedish burial custom bears witness to connections across the Gulf of Bothnia. When these grave mounds were created, the sea still reached all the way to the south-western side of Untamala village."

http://www.nationalparks.fi/untamala/history

More Nordic/Germanic/proto-Svionic mounds in Finland:
https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/579

As far as I can see (and read in translation) of this Finnish site, the origins were at some time in Ural where the language developed. Slowly the population having this language moved in the direction of the Baltic sea [arrival at the southern tip of Finland in 500 BC].

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomensynty.html

Вы объяснили мне, что Рюрик не имел паспорт! Спасибо! Значит надо искать банковскую карту и мобильный телефон Рюрка!

You explained to me that Rurik didn't have a passport! Thank you! So it is necessary to seek a Bank card and mobile phone of Rurik!

Русский (славянский) язык был основным в древнем Новгороде! Безусловно, в этом регионе был распространен карельский диалект финского языка! Но по Y-DNA Рюрик и его потомки не были карельскими финнами! Они относились к обособленной группе Y-DNA N1c1-Y10931 (не карельская)!

Russian (Slavic) language was the main in ancient Novgorod! Of course, Karelian dialect of the Finnish language was widespread in this region! But by Y-DNA Rurik and his descendants were not Karelian Finns! They belonged to a separate group Y-DNA N1c1-Y10931 (not Karelian)!

В древних текстах нет финских имен! Все известные имена славянские либо скандинавские! Вместе с тем, в регионе до настоящего времени есть сельские поселения сохранившие финские названия!

There are no Finnish names in the ancient texts! All the known names of Slavic or Scandinavian! At the same time, in the region there are still rural settlements that have preserved the Finnish names!

http://www.rodstvo.ru/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t1585-350.html

>There are no Finnish names in the ancient texts!
The ancient texts are not in Finnish so that is not really evidence of much.

Oleg is not a Finnish name nor is Igor, but they are not Swedish either, they are Slavic but that means the authors of those ancient texts used Slavic names, it does not follow that the men were Slavic genetically or culturally.

Да! N1c1 - финн, имен у одного человека могло быть несколько... В Новгороде соединились несколько культур... 1/3 населения была этническими финнами...
Yes! N1c1-Finn, one person could have several names... In Novgorod joined several cultures... 1/3 of the population was ethnic Finns...

Даже в настоящее время более 1/3 мужчин в Новгороде N1c1 - потомки финнов, хотя разговаривают на русском языке и считают себя русскими...

Even now, more than 1/3 of men in Novgorod N1c1 are descendants of Finns, although they speak Russian and consider themselves Russian...

В сельских поселениях региона финнов было намного больше..

In rural settlements of the region Finns was much more..

Amir, runes are simply marks made in wood. This was equally widespread in Finland. On old land registers, although I am sure many could read and write, signatories had the custom of signing their name by their own rune mark. This was usually a few strokes, some more fancy than others. It didn't follow any language. Today, we would call it a 'logo'.

It is only 'germanic' insofar that some communities used it as a form of writing. If they were Swedish-speaking, then of course it would follow Swedish syntax.

Christine!
Runes are more than than just a mark of the owner. With runes I mean worded runes. Please link to any scientific data, homepage or any similar link to display for us about the equally distributed runes. I have so far not found anything of that.

I just want to remind you that the topic of this discussion is: "Rurik probably had Finnish roots."
Which makes it natural for us to vent the Finns' story.

In the description of the "Rurik" profile on Geni, it is written in the Swedish version that Varjags and Svear belong together, but also he has another name:
"His true Nordic name is considered to be Rörik (Hrörekr). Some reliable historical information about who Rurik was or where he came from is not, but according to Nestorkrönikan, he belonged to the Varjagian (Nordic) tribe called Ruser, which is considered by most historians be the same as the svear. "

And then a link to confirm this, the link goes to a Swedish page that does not work http://historiska-personer.nu/ '' '
With a little correction of the link, you can access the page anyway, but it does not feel like a source I would refer to if I had the right to decide on that.
What historians are claiming that Varjags and Svear are the same you will not get an answer to .......?

I think the description of Rurik and his origins does not have proper evidence. Therefore I started this topic.

We are many here who have read, in different languages and by different historians, that in what is Sweden today, there have been historically Finnish people. Likewise, many archaeological excavations show that this is the case. We do not know where Rurik came from or if he lived, but if he did, it's likely that he may have had Finnish roots. During the time when Rurik probably lived, the Finnish people were in today's Russia and today's Sweden.

This does not mean that we who participate here want to be ridiculed or have various attributes and political titles on us.

I'm surprised by the big response my "topic" received so thanks to all who share interesting information in your posts and links. I look forward to getting even more.

Нестора читайте! Нестор отрицает, что Рюрик - Швед! Имя у Рюрика одно! Написано, что пришел он из-за моря! Балтийское море Нестор не называет!
Nestor read! Nestor denies that Rurik is Swedish! Rurik's name is the same! It is written that he came from the sea! Nestor does not name the Baltic sea!

Alexander, I am grateful that you have made the proposal that an alternative to the Baltic Sea may be Lake Ilmen.
I do not have this geographical knowledge of Russia, but now I understand that when I studied the map it could be possible.
And that Nestor's words can be interpreted differently is probably very likely.

I will also read Nestor at an opportunity.

Огромное Ладожское озеро тогда тоже называли морем! Вариантов несколько - три!

The huge lake Ladoga was also called the sea! A few options - three!

Yes, Ladoga is a very big lake. I knew that because I have several ancestors who lived around the lake hundreds of years ago before the lake became a Russian area. Nearby is also Onega. And it is said that there are lots of very old historic rock carvings around the lake. People, boats, animals, I would like to visit these.

Arja, if anybody links to an unsourced map claiming that Finnveden in Småland was "Finnish", then that claim is ridiculous. If anybody claims that the Nordic Germanic Bronze and Iron ages did not exist (yet with an overwhelming abundance of evidence in different aspects of science, from Svealand - the area we are discussing), then that claim is ridiculous. That does not mean that you personally are ridiculous, just that the claims are ridiculous. There is a history of Catherine II Catherine II "The Great" Romanova, Empress of All the Russias, Empress of Russia in which is trying to move the origin of Rurik away from the Nordic countries as a direct political propaganda maneuver. The whole topic we are discussing is thus not new. I am further not prepared to put here what the most extreme Fenomannian extremists have written about Russians - you can find it if you search on the internet - that is another over-Nationalistic trend spearheaded in the Eastern direction which is going way out of line (search for the writings of Elmo E. Kaila Elmo Edvard Kaila ).

Амир! Я не хочу тут говорить об "официальной" версии происхождения Рюрика от Римских Императоров, которая считалась основной при Екатерине II... Это был полный бред! Василий Татищев первым поставил ту версию под сомнение и назвал Рюрика этническим финном! Происхождение Рюрика Татищев ограничил балтийским регионом! Разные варианты происхождения Рюрика теперь сводятся только к определению конкретного места!
Amir! I do not want to talk here about the "official" version of the origin of Rurik from The Roman Emperors, which was considered the main one under Catherine II... That was insane! Vasily Tatishchev was the first to question that version and called Rurik an ethnic Finn! The origin of Rurik, Tatischev has limited the Baltic region! Different versions of the origin of Rurik now confined to the definition of a particular place!

There is researchgroup on Family Tree DNA called "Rurikid Dynasty"

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/rurikid/about/results

This what they write (not me - they):

"Detailed results have also been displayed on http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~mozhayski/teksty/ydna.html . It was found that Rurik was of Varangian origin (a sub-branch in the N1c1 genetic haplogroup). Since his genetic haplotype, that can be anticipated from more than 10 results of modern Rurikid princes, best matches one of the haplotypes of the Swedes, one may eventually conclude that he was of Swedish descent. From some historical sources it follows that he was born in Sweden on the Roslagen seashore (north of Stockholm),or, eventually, somewhere on the way from Uppsala to Birka. There have been several indirect proofs that people in this region were called Rhos(s) in the Middle Ages. This word is pronounced “roos” in Swedish, which sounds like Russia today. Probably the Finnish word “Ruotsi” (Sweden) also comes from this word".

Викинги (Шведы) имели Y-DNA I1a1

The Vikings (the Swedes) had Y-DNA I1a1