Rurik, Founder of the Rurikid Dynasty - Rurik probably had Finnish roots

Started by Arja Inkeri Terävä on Friday, July 20, 2018
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Amir: re Tacitus. He clearly was not referring to *suomalaiset* (Finns) as Finns have had a sauna tradition dating back over 2,000 years, thus cleaner than most Europeans in history (Elizabeth I, for example, never bathed). They also had great forest clearing skills (scorch and burn) and it was the early Finnish emigrants to the USA (labelled 'Swedes' as it was a Swedish empire ATT) that showed the others how to clear the woods in Delaware.

So Tacitus is not referring to this highly skilled, well-organised and agriculturally skilled people.

Amir, you can't win this battle, as it is sprung out of nationalistic ideas, censur of facts and so on, it doesn't matter that the DNA straight father to son found in those descendants mainly are found in Scandinavia, or the fact that Rus was not a homogeneous people, but they shared a specific way of living, culture, just as most of the people living around the Baltic sea actually are balts, including Swedes, Danes, North Germans and Poles in a wider sense, that's how we should understand the term "Rus", it's a conglomerate of people consisting of various tribes but living under the same rules and conditions. Firstly they were traders, secondly, they could all become varings, meaning that they got paid for doing raids or protection, thus known as Varangians. Slavic people before Rurik are not known for anything special, they had simple life, hunter and gathers, nomadic, some had cattle or did some minor farming, the Finns WERE indeed firstly hunters and gathers and farmers, it's important to not confuse the chronological development, with what people later became.

The increased population in Scandinavia under the end of the Iron age led to a high culture, they become more advanced so to speak, and that was the main difference that led to their expansion towards their neighbors, they took what they wanted and exploited both people and resources, they took slaves and put them in mass production, among others places the most famous was Birka, it was nothing else than a giant concentration camp, the gods produced there was sold and traded widely, more, people who was not taken as slaves, had to pay tribute in form of local collection of food, raw materials, fur etc, this was a tax, and that's also a part f why these Scandinavians got so spread out the coast around the Baltic sea, they needed trading stations as well as supervisors of the tax system, and obviously, it worked so good that when they left the control in the eastern parts, people experienced anarchy instead, and that's why they brought over this Rurik, to restore order and stability, it's simple as that.

В Новгороде княжеская власть была ограниченной и не передавалась по наследству! Новгород никогда не назывался княжеством! Рюрик был компромиссной фигурой, так как состоял в близком родстве со всеми этническими группами и хорошо знал их языки и традиции! Неслучайно его потомки обосновались в Киеве!
В Киеве они смогли без особого труда установить монархию!

In Novgorod, the princely power was limited and was not inherited! Novgorod was never called a Principality! Rurik was a compromise figure, as he was closely related to all ethnic groups and knew their languages and traditions! It is no accident that his descendants settled in Kiev!
In Kiev, they were able to easily establish a monarchy!

В 1478 году Новгород был захвачен Иваном III, а огромная территория Новгородской Республики была присоединена к Московскому Княжеству!

In 1478 Novgorod was captured by Ivan III, and the huge territory of the Novgorod Republic was annexed To the Moscow Principality!

Great text Ulf! I agree all the way with what you write.

I am aware that "Nationalism" makes the battle un-winable. It is a pity, especially that Finns have so much other things to be proud of instead of invented and unfounded stories of "glory". After all it is a very industrious, patient, honest and hard-working nation. Just to mention a few matters; from the 1500s and onwards Finnish settlers put in a lot of effort in the Western part of Sweden (Värmland, Dalarna and even Ångermanland) to clear out forrests and start agriculture. The Finnish nation fought bravely with Gustav IV Adolf in the 30 years war and of course in the pre-emptive war of Gustaf III in 1788-1790 - not to forget in 1808-1809 in which Gustav IV had MASSIVE support from the ordinary Finnish population. They saved indirectly Sweden in 1918 from the Reds, not to speak of their heroic efforts during WWII followed by being the backbone in immigration to Sweden following that war and building up Sweden to become a economically leading Western European country. My full sympathy is with Suomi/Finland, regardless if they live in Finland or elsewhere. Yet - history cannot be distorted. This as well as the invented stories about Atlantis and Sweden by "our own" Rudbeckius [Olof Rudbeck d.ä.] Olof Rudbeck in no way can be acceptable.

...ehum...should of course be Gustav II Adolf...sorry!

Ulf,
What is the meaning of "varing".
If varing > varangian i am looking at this and thinking warring > warrior, does varangian = warrior?
Just an idea with no chance of proof.

Speaking of ideas with no chance of proof, i am amused to some extent how fervent the argument over Rurik's origin gets when it's equally plausible that Rurik never existed and his story is simply a justification to explain the later social structure.

Все известные потомки Рюрика по мужской линии имеют одинаковый Y-DNA N1c1-Y10931 (особая обособленная группа)! Своего общего предка они называют Рюриком, который под этим именем неоднократно упоминается в древних текстах!
К сожалению, паспорт Рюрика, выданный ему при жизни, археологи еще не нашли!

All known descendants of Rurik the male line have the same Y-DNA N1c1-Y10931 (a special separate group)! Their common ancestor they called the Rurik, which under this name is mentioned in the ancient texts!
Unfortunately, the passport of Rurik, issued to him in life, archaeologists have not found!

Alex Moes: Väring means Sworn in (edsvuren). The warrior factions had to swear allegiance to to their earl (Jarl) or leader, I guess.
Alexander: I have never doubted that Rurik was Finnish/Ugric on his paternal side, what I am discussing is his Svionic heritage coming from Roslagen. I also find myself in a discussion about the "non-existence" of a Nordic/Swedish/Svionic/Germanic Bronze age as well as Iron age. That is a little bit awkward so to say... I suggest everybody to read the excellent text of Ulf Martinsson above.

Alex:

varing is väring in swedish, from swedish vakt

vakt in english guard.

in finish vartija, vartijan, vartijat

all probably from germans: Wache Wächter Wärter

Well according to Nationalencyklopedin Väring means Sworn in:

"Väringar (fornisländska væringjar, möjligen ungefär ’edsvurna’), medelgrekiska Baʹrangoi, benämning på framför allt nordbor"

https://www.ne.se/uppslagsverk/encyklopedi/l%C3%A5ng/v%C3%A4ringar

В русском языке "Варяг" это общее название независимо от этноса!
"Викинг" это швед, который тоже варяг!

Оба слова заимствованы из скандинавских языков! Думаю, что "Князь" это от "Конунг"....

Hi distant cousin Erica (Erica Howton is your 25th cousin twice removed [provided that Geni is correct]). Kvenish, Finnish, Vepsian or Estonian - all fine with me. Coming from Roslagen/Uppland/Svealand, yet makes him a naturalised Svion - as far as I can see it.
Best regards
Amir

Erika: Very interesting! Thanks!

About Roslagen:
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roden
"Roden is mentioned for the first time in the Uppland Act in 1296, which states that the law will also apply in the Northern Roden, which led to the assumption that the Roden originally layed outside the national land division, which, however, is highly uncertain.
In the 16th century, the names of Roslagen and the Roden begin to be used as synonyms in the administrative documents. "

About Ros/Rus:

"One of the earliest written sources mentioning the people called Rus' (as Rhos) dates to 839 in the Annales Bertiniani. This chronicle identifies them as a Germanic tribe called the Swedes. According to the Kievan Rus' Primary Chronicle, compiled in about 1113, the Rus' were a group of Varangians, Norsemen who had relocated somewhere from the Baltic region (literally "from beyond the sea"), first to Northeastern Europe, then to the south where they created the medieval Kievan state".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Rus%27,_Russia_and_Ruthenia

The Iron age in Uppland at Vendel (when Vendel was much nearer the coastline than today):

"Vendels historia De järnåldersfynd som gjorts i Vendels församling har gett namn åt vendeltiden, vilken inföll 550-800 e.Kr, d v s perioden efter folkvandringstiden och före vikingatiden".

The iron age findings in Vendel's parish have given name to the period, which was 550-800 AD, ie the period after the migration period and before the Viking era. The excellent waterways made Vendelåsen a central point and a rich settlement. Via Vendelsjön and Vendelån you had a direct connection with Fyrisån. Through this waterway you could reach Gamla Uppsala and & Mälaren. The chieftains had wide contacts and traveled as good as the Vikings outside of Sweden's borders, though never as far as some Vikings . But clearly a precursor to the Viking era."

http://www.karbyvendel.se/vendel.shtml

Bronze Age in Uppland/Svealand?
Yes of course!

"Redan under bronsåldern (1700-500 f. Kr) var Gamla Uppsala ett relativt rikt och komplext samhälle! Det menar arkeologerna Hans Göthberg och Per Frölund, som presenterat sin senaste forskning i artikeln "Gamla Uppsala före formationen - ett bidrag till centralplatsens genes" i antologin ”Gamla Uppsala i ny belysning”.

Already during the Bronze Age (1700-500 BC), Gamla Uppsala was a relatively rich and complex society! This means the archaeologists Hans Göthberg and Per Frölund, who presented their latest research in the article "Old Uppsala before the formation - a contribution to the origins of the central place" in the anthology "Gamla Uppsala in new lighting".

http://www.arkeologigamlauppsala.se/Sv/nyheter/2014/Pages/gamla-upp...

Did the writing with Runes appear in Scandinavia first at the start of the Viking age?
No, much earlier than that:

"Runorna var den första skriften i Skandinavien. De skapades redan under det första århundradet efter vår tideräknings början. När de vikingatida runstenarna höggs hade runorna alltså funnits i nästan tusen år".

"The runes were the first scripture in Scandinavia. They were already created in the first century AD. When the viking runestones were carved out in stone, the runes had been around for almost a thousand years".

From the National Swedish Historic Museum in Stockholm:
http://historiska.se/upptack-historien/artikel/de-forsta-runorna/

In "the tale of Ragnars sons" was there a mantioning of Sigurd " snake in the eye" to have had a son named Helgi? And could he be same as Oleg?

Findings of the older Run-Futhark in Sweden [also in Svealand as can be seen]
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futhark#/media/File:Elder_futhark_ins...

The whole article (unfortunately not in English):
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futhark

"The older futhark consists of 24 runes. It is also called the original Nordic, original Germanic, or Same-Germanic futhark and was used by all Germanic people. In Sweden, ther haS been found, in principle, complete original Germanic on the Kylvesten from Gotland (about 400 AD), considered to be the oldest known futhark in the world, the Vadstenabrakteaten from Östergötland (about 450-550), the Mariedamm brakteaten from Närke (about 450-550 AD) and Grumpan brakteaten from Västergötland (about 500 AD)".

Den äldre futharken består av 24 runor. Den kallas även för den urnordiska, urgermanska eller samgermanska futharken och var i bruk hos alla germanfolk. I Sverige har man funnit i princip fullständiga urgermanska futharker på Kylverstenen från Gotland (ca. 400), som anses vara den äldsta kända futharken i världen, Vadstenabrakteaten från Östergötland (ca. 450-550), Mariedammbrakteaten från Närke (ca. 450-550) och Grumpanbrakteaten från Västergötland (ca. 500).

Germanic Bracteates - especially in the Nordic countries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracteate
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brakteat

Amir! Вы обязательно должны посетить Старую Ладогу и Новгород!
You should definitely visit Old Ladoga and Novgorod!

Yes you are right Alexander! I have already started to look into how to travel there. My intention is to travel next summer!
Best regards
Amir

Guðbjörn Ívar Kjartansson Oleg are comparable with Helge, it's the same origin and meaning, just different pronunciation.

Unfortunately, we do not have the male DNA for Olof Skötkonung, https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olof_Sk%C3%B6tkonung , the son of Erik Segersäll, son of Björn Eriksson, son of Erik Emundarsson, son of Emundar Eriksson, https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emund_Eriksson son of Erik Refilsson, son of Refil Björnsson, https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refil, son of Björn Järnsida, son of Ragnar Lodbrok. Source: Langfeðgatal, the oldest source for the kings in Svitjod.

Definately finnish roots, also written in russian history. Also there has been mentioned old kings and kingdoms (does not matter how big or small kingdoms) in many histories written by different historians starting from old arabic texts, old sagad and in normal book history in several countries untill late 1700's, just then swedish started their "own history" about Finland, washing out it all. That is how to rule easiest another country, take their history and language, wipe it away. Just saying :)

And to Amir. In genetics, there has been a large studies that came out little while ago that Finnish people are the oldest one n Europe with their hablogroup in same area that goes 6000 years back, so that changed totally the old theories "coming from volga". Acually there has been that many studies that many part should be written again. Old studies has been."white washed". There are several archeolohical findings at the moment, that are also changing "history" that were written by so called "winners".

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