Rurik, Founder of the Rurikid Dynasty - Rurik probably had Finnish roots

До недавнего времени было две основных версии происхождения Рюрика - Нормандская и Славянская! В утверждение Татищева, что отец Рюрика был финном, никто не верил! Но теперь доказано, что Татищев был прав!
Until recently, there were two main versions of the origin of Rurik-Norman and Slavic! In Tatischev's statement that the father of Rurik was Finnish, nobody believed! But now it is proved that Tatishchev was right!

How on earth would he find a Swedish wife at lake Ilmen?

Amir: You have not been able to show a single proof that Rurik would have been Svionic, Swedish or anything else.
I have shown archaeological finds in graves and other things that point to a great Finnish presence historically in what is Sweden today, from historical times when Rurik lived. I have also shown the spread of Finnish-Ural people. There are those who even claim that DNA inherited from Rurik is the Finnish N1c1.
We know that when the Slavic people came up to Novgorod, then where the Finnish tribes there. Similarly, we know that it took several hundred years after Rurik died as Lake Mälaren became part of a Swedish king.
Several historical people have described Finnish tribes as a part of what is Sweden today when traveling during the years 98-500th in the north.

Runstones have nothing to do with Rurik.

Around the year 960 there was a big boost for run stones starting in Denmark.
The tradition continued to the north and they made run-stones for a few generations in each area before tiring, with an exception: Uppland and Södermanland. There the trend took a good deal in the 1100s, which made these landscapes particularly rich in run-stones. The fact that the run stones would be linked to the conversion to Christianity has gained support, since the most active period and the area of run-stone travel, the second half of the 1000's in the Mälardalen, coincide with the Christianity of this particular area.
And it is true that Finnish people did not make run stones at this time in Finland, they were not Christians.

Вы посмотрели Новгород на карте? Финны не строили городов, а жили в небольших селениях! Старою Ладогу основали Викинги (Шведы) в 7 веке, так как их корабли (драккары) выше по течению реки Волхов подняться на могли из-за речных порогов!
В 8 веке Старая Ладога принадлежала Ильменским Словенам, которые начали там производство цветных стеклянных бус! Это подтверждено результатами археологических раскопок! Шведы и финны не знали технологии изготовления цветных стеклянных бус!
Did you see Novgorod on the map? Finns did not build cities, but lived in small villages! Old Ladoga was founded by the Vikings (Swedes) in the 7th century, as their ships (drakkars) upstream of the Volkhov river could rise because of the river rapids!
In the 8th century Old Ladoga belonged to Ilmen Slovenes, who started the production of colored glass beads there! This is confirmed by the results of archaeological excavations! The Swedes and Finns did not know the technology of making colored glass beads!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runestone

It was unusual with cities in the north. Novgorod is an exception and one of the first major cities in Europe. The people lived the most in different tribes. There were no direct countries either.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%82%...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Republic

No Arja - you have not shown any proof that Sweden was inhabited by Finns.

In the far north there might have been Kväns (Finnish people along the Torne River).
South of that a few thousand Sami which were seminomadic and herded raindeer and by the coast were fishermen. There are no Finnish towns from that time.

There is nothing pointing to what you are claiming, not in science, not in history and not in archeology. Even during the Bronze time Svealand and the coastal regions of southern Norrland were inhabited by Germanic proto-Svear/Svionics.

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sverige_under_brons%C3%A5ldern
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age

In Iron age Svealand and Uppsala especially, was a Nordic Germanic center. Whatever few artifacts you might find being Finnish (or Estonian) might have been produced locally by POWs, females captured during the wars or even small colonies - as there were transbaltic colonies of all kinds in that time - in all directions and from different reasons. You have no support from academics and scientific writings in Finland, Sweden or Russia for these claims.

Believe me, I read alot by Finnish historians, and they are very scientific in their approach in a number of historical matters.

Prior to Runstones, during the Iron Age (in the mid 500s AD and onwards) you had in Svealand "Gravklot" or grave orbs.

This one I saw last week passing by Toresunds Kyrka on Selaön (Svealand):
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toresunds_kyrka

Some more about Grave Orbs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_orb
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravklot

These were produced in pre-christian times (Iron age, pre-Viking) and were the precursors of the Runstones. They cannot be found in the Finnish or Estonian or Karelian heartland. You have to live with that fact.

You have tried to convince the readers of this thread that Svealand was Finnish - that is wrong. The Germanic presence in Sweden is all the way from the Bronze age. At most we find a couple of thousand Sami in the North and Kväni around Torne River. So you cannot convince me.

Best regards
Amir

I'm sorry but your links prove nothing. I can not see any archaeological statements about who, for example, made rock paintings, etc. It just proves that there were people, but not who they were.
I do not say that Svealand was Finnish without the archaeologists finding a big Finnish presence in their excavations.

Новгород находится далеко от Швеции! Рюрик финн, сын вождя финского племени жившего рядом с Новгородом! Озеро Ильмень и Ладожское озеро тогда называли морями! На противоположном от Новгорода берегу озера (моря) Ильмень находился город Русса (Старая Русса), на 1/3 населенный финнами!

Novgorod is far from Sweden! Rurik Finn, son of the leader of the Finnish tribe who lived near Novgorod! Lake Ilmen and lake Ladoga were then called the seas! On the opposite Novgorod Bank of the lake (sea) Ilmen was the city of Russa (Staraya Russa), 1/3 inhabited by Finns!

Arja - there is no serious academic support for your thoughts and ideas. Some few artifacts of probable Finnish origins shows not much. There is no "big Finnish presence" in Svealand nor in Götaland from the Bronze age, the Irone age or from the Viking age.
If you try to write this in a scientific journal you will never get published.
In the north of Norrland you find a couple of thousand Sami and Kväns along the Torne River - and that is about it.

My question to you Alexander: from where did Rurik find his Swedish wife?

Best regards

Викинги (шведы) в этом регионе всегда присутствовали, но их было мало! Старая Ладога была основана Викингами (шведами) в 7 веке, но позже они передали (возможно продали) Старою Ладогу Ильменским Словенам, которые начали там производство цветных стеклянных бус в огромном количестве!

Vikings (Swedes) were always present in this region, but they were few! Old Ladoga was founded by the Vikings (Swedes) in the 7th century, but later they gave (probably sold) old Ladoga to The Ilmen Slovenes, who started there the production of colored glass beads in large numbers!

Alexander, sure they were there - but as you said in the 7th century - almost 200 years before the Vikinga age started. Most probably Sviones/Svear travelling and settling there.Starting up their Eastern expansion. I am not surprised.

And Alexander - Novgorod is near to Sweden. Much nearer than Sutton Hoo.

В русском языке "Викинг" и "Варяг" это не равнозначные названия! Все викинги (шведы) это варяги, но не все варяги (общее название) это викинги (шведы)!

In the Russian language "Viking" and "Varjag" is not equivalent to the name! All the Vikings (the Swedes) is the Varjags, but all Varjags (common name) the Viking (the Swedes)!

Старая Ладога - Aldeigja, Aldeigjuborg

Amir: I have just referred to archaeological excavations etc. These excavations made in Uppland, Birka, Gamla Uppsala, Norrland etc. are made by professional archaeologists and researchers. I find no reason to mistrust these data.

Археологические раскопки в Новгороде, Старой Ладоге и Старой Руссе тоже производятся профессиональными археологами, но это другой регион!

Archaeological excavations in Novgorod, Staraya Ladoga and Staraya Russa are also carried out by professional archaeologists, but this is another region!

Amir, thanks for the background info on Klaus Slaweka. I will have to look up Mörby Church.

You are wrong there is little Viking evidence in Finland. I went to the Viking Exhibition two years ago at the British Museum, and virtually ALL of the extremely high quality swords - some branded 'Ulfberht' (believed to have been a German superskilled crafstman - were excavated in Finland. Other interesting items were witches wands, brooches, torques, beads, etc. There was even the skeletons of about 32 young Vikings who were ambushed somewhere in England, found in a mass grave.

The Germans originated from Central Europe. It makes sense the North was dominated pre-Christianity by Saami, Finns, Baltics and other northern types.

В Старой Ладоге археологи обнаружили огромное производство цветных стеклянных бус, которое Ильменские Словени начали там не позднее 8 века! Инструмент, заготовки, сырье и бракованные изделия!

In Staraya Ladoga archaeologists have discovered a huge production of colored glass beads, which ilmenskie Slavs began there no later than the 8th century! Tools, blanks, raw materials and defective products!

За цветные стеклянные бусы местные финны были готовы продать всё!

Local Finns were ready to sell everything for colored glass beads!

Arja they found artifacts in Birka and gamla Uppsala, I never doubted that and I also wrote an explanation for that (small colonies or POWS and/or enslaved females). The gene-composition of present day Swedes shows a very marginal influence from the East - due to the fact that they were very few.

Christina - according to all available data the Germanics arrived to the region some 10 000- 12000 years ago and even spread during Iron age to some areas which now are Finland. Not the other way around. The Sami/Finns recently arrived some 3000-4000 years ago. These are claims from FINNISH scientists.

Whatever is found of Iron age or Viking age in Finland [grave mounds for instance] - (mainly on the Coastland), is of Nordic (Germanic) origins.

http://www.ladogamuseum.ru/Ras/bus/

The Finns/Sami/Vepsians and so forth arrived from central Asia by the route of the Volga region. Late commers to the region.

In Old Ladoga in ancient times found in the ground a lot of glass beads. In 1114, when Prince Mstislav mayor Paul here was erected earthworks and built a stone fortress, these finds were so numerous that gave rise to the belief of the town residents, allegedly beads fall from the sky from the clouds: "... thou will be a cloud of large, being our children, glasky Steklyannyy and small, and Velikii, proverty and drugyya beside the Volkhov river, take, hedgehog vypolaskivat water". The former chronicler gathered more than a hundred different beads and marveled at this

https://nordbor.wordpress.com/finnar-och-samer/

Unfortunately this is in Swedish, but in short it says that there were Germanics in todays Finland already 4000 years. The Finns/Sami arrived 2500-3000 years ago.

Finnar och Samer är relativt nyanlända till Norden
Samerna hävdar ibland att de är Nordens ursprungsfolk. Men ingenting kan vara mer fel. Finnar och Samer som tillhör den manliga haplogruppen N*, kom till Norden från Volgaområdet i östra Ryssland, för omkring 2500-3000 år sedan. Då fanns där redan nordbor med haplogrupp I där som kommit till Finland redan under stenåldern och tidig bronsålder för mer än 4000 år sedan.

Flera språkforskare vid universitet i Finland har med modern databaserade språkanalyser kommit till dessa slutsatser.

This page explains that it was the other way around than Arja is trying to convince us about - the Germanics expanded into what is Finland today, before the Finns and Sami had arrived.
The last map also shows Slavic expansion during the Iron age into what is Finland today.
https://nordbor.wordpress.com/finlands-forntid/

Кузнечно-ювелирная мастерская функционировала в 50-60-х гг. VIII в. Найденные на этом уровне бусы единичны. Почти все стеклянные изделия горизонта ез сосредоточены в его среднем и верхнем ярусах, что позволяет ограничить время их массового отложения 780 —830-ми гг., т.е. в пределах половины столетия.
Сложившаяся с момента освоения участка производственная зона сохраняла ремесленный характер и на последующих этапах. Правда, в среднем ярусе мастерская не была вскрыта, но о ее наличии свидетельствует локализация у северной стенки раскопа многочисленных стекловидных шлаков и других отходов стеклоделия. Она тяготеет к выявленной в разрезе стенки мощной линзе угля, золы и прокаленной глины, также насыщенной шлаками. По дендродатам последнего объекта, он был сооружен около 782 г.
После пожара, уничтожившего сооружения среднего яруса, происходит сложение верхнего строительного яруса горизонта ез. Наблюдается прямая преемственность в характере объектов,
доступное сырье — золу древесины, требовавшей применения более стойких огнеупоров и использования технологии высокотемпературных режимов.
Заимствованная на Востоке ладожская технология была рассчитана исключительно на ввоз сырья из этого региона. Установленный стабильный набор элементов-красителей, технологические добавки и химический тип образцов также характерны для восточной школы стеклоделия.
Характер отходов позволяет предполагать существование в Ладоге полного цикла производства, включавшего варку стекла из привозного сырья и изготовление бус.