Rurik, Founder of the Rurikid Dynasty - Rurik probably had Finnish roots

Александр Евгеньевич Елисеев

Thank you for all the interesting information you provided! It agrees with much that I found in my studies. I was also surprised when I discovered that many Russians had DNA roots with Finnish people. I also did not know that Finnish people lived in the whole of "Russia" before the Slavic people came so far north.
History is interesting! I read as much as I can!

Amir little about N-DNA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231
The spread of Y-DNA N, for example, shows why I, along with many other Finns, Russians and Scandinavians, carry this heritage. Through our fathers, you inherit this DNA group from father to son, etc. That I know that my father had this is via my brother. We women follow otherwise mother-daughter etc.
Personally, like many other Finnish people, I have a few percent of Asian DNA in me, probably due to historical migrations during the Ice Age among the Hunter People from Asia who later came to the Nordic countries / Northern Europe. What they were or if they were mixed with on the road I do not know because I almost only have typical Finnish DNA in addition to a little Asian.
And because of this I started to search for my and Finnish peoples roots.
And then I found this Rurik, with the Finn-DNA. But we never know....for sure.

У меня вопрос к участникам обсуждения! Кто из вас был в шторм посреди Ладожского озера? Кто был на реке Волхов и в Новгороде? Кто видел озеро Ильмень?
I have a question for the participants! Which one of you was in a storm in the middle of lake Ladoga? Who was on the Volkhov river and in Novgorod? Who has seen lake Ilmen?

К сожалению я не могу ответить по русскому языку. По английском пожалуйста:
I have visited a couple of times Novgorod, River Volkhov, Lake Ilmen. Lake Ladoga has been not stormy at all every time I have been there. First time was July 1985 and last time was early June this year.

Это хорошо! Значит имеете представление об этом регионе! В древности Ладожское озеро называли морем! Историк Татищев в 1768 году утверждал, что лично видел у монахов отшельников очень древние тексты и переписал их! Из этих текстов следовало, что Рюрик был сыном вождя племени, жившего недалеко от Новгорода! Думаю, что это было финское племя, которых в этом регионе тогда было много!
That's good! So you have an idea about this region! In ancient times Ladoga lake was called the sea! The historian Tatishchev in 1768 claimed that he had personally seen very ancient texts from the monks of the hermits and copied them! Of these texts was that Rurik was the son of a tribal chief who lived near Novgorod! I think that it was a Finnish tribe, which in this region then was a lot!

Tatishchev is "problematic" = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioachim_Chronicle

While the conversation is very interesting to follow I would like to change the subject slightly and hope that you will all still participate.

The Geni profile of Grand Duke of Novgorod Rurik has over two hundred managers. The current family structure shown on Geni is:

Son of Unknown father of Rurik, Varangian

Husband of Efanda, Grand Duchess of Novgorod and Ingrid of Norway

Father of Igor of Kiev and Efanda Riurikaitė

The profile was previously linked to a mother ( Umila ) and has had many different fathers connected to it over the years.

The connection to Umila is based on Tatishchev and has been disconnected for the time being. The various fathers come from modern interpretations trying to make Rurik fit into some known dynasty. It is not clear where the names of his _wives_ and daughter come from.

It is my understanding that the Primary Chronicle only mentions Rurik, his two brothers, his son Igor and his kinsman Oleg. So my question is how accurate is my understanding of the Primary Chronicle's content? I have certainly never read the document myself nor even a translation so what i think i know could be incorrect.

Second question, how happy are _we_ collectively with the current family structure on Geni?

Историю Тататищева надо читать по книге изданной в 1768 году! Википедия его неверно трактует! Только он на финском происхождении Рюрика, что соответствует Y-DNA N1c1
The history of Tatishchev should be read by the book published in 1768! Wikipedia misinterprets it! He's only on the Finnish origin of Rurik, which corresponds to the Y-DNA N1c1

The Wikipedia article i linked discusses the opinion of Tatishchev held by later historians, it does not tell us anything about the book itself.

Whether Rurik has Finnish DNA or not is not in anyway relevant to the family structure shown on Geni though i suppose it could be used as a argument for the reliability of Tatishchev.

Сайт Geni меня вполне устраивает! Я завтра постараюсь создать отдельно профиль Рюрика и его семьи по ранним летописям и покажу что получилось!
The website Geni, I'm quite happy! Tomorrow I will try to create a separate profile of Rurik and his family for the early Chronicles and will show what happened!

Книга Татищева есть в электронной копии с оригинала 1768 года, но она на русском языке!
The book of Tatishchev is in an electronic copy from the original of 1768, but it is in Russian!

https://www.runivers.ru/bookreader/book9688/#page/71/mode/1up

Считаю, что для определения места рождения Рюрика необходимо тестировать на Y-DNA представителей мужской части коренного населения мест возможного проживания потомков его соплеменников! В России это города: Новгород, Старая Русса, Старая Ладога и Петрозаводск (Карела)...
I think that to determine the place of birth of Rurik should be tested on the Y-DNA of representatives of the male indigenous population of places of possible residence of the descendants of his tribesmen! In Russia's cities: Novgorod, Staraya Russa, Staraya Ladoga, Petrozavodsk (Karelian)...

Hello guys, I have not participated in a day but see you're up and running. Nice!

Alex: I think the family structure is a little weird and maybe not fully supported by evidence for Rurik's family. But I'm not the right person to decide on it.
I only came up with a theory about Rurik's origins because I read a lot of history and hence it came to the conclusion that Rurik probably had Finnish origin due to who the inhabitans were in Scandinavia and Russia during his time.

Amir, we wrote about Finnveden and Finnaithe, here you get an explanation:

"Phinnoi (Φιννοι) was one of the people living in Scandinavia (Scandia), mentioned by a Greek scientist Ptolemy in his Geographia around 150 CE. Ptolemy mentions them twice, but provides no other information on them.
Today, Phinnoi is most commonly seen as the forefathers of the Sami people, who inhabited most of the Scandinavian peninsula in the times of Ptolemy. The name seems to have been a form of the Germanic word Finn, an old common nominator for Finns and the Sami people, both speakers of Uralic languages. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phinnoi

this is in Swedish:
https://books.google.se/books?id=638BAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA104&lpg=...

Rurikids Y-DNA N1c1-Y10931

The fact that the Finnish Karels had a high position in Novgorod can be proved with the birch bark documents. Here is an example of one written with Cyrillic writing on an old Karelian dialect. The document is from hundreds of years after Rurik's death. But it reinforces the significance of the Finnish Karelian heritage for a long time, even after Slavic people have taken the whole area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birch_bark_letter_no._292

The Slavic peoples heading north:
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaver#/media/File:Slavic_peoples_6th...

https://media.geni.com/p13/74/04/c5/2f/53444848ac419d9d/snp-n-tree-...

Тексты, которые вы демонстрируете, написаны на русском (славянском) языке, который финны хорошо знали!
The texts you are showing are written in Russian (Slavic) language, which the Finns knew well!

Unknown Profile

Александр: I see that you added another version of Rurik in Geni's World Tree.
Can you tell me why?

Для сравнения! В существующей версии очень много ошибок!
For comparison! There are a lot of mistakes in the existing version!

Alexander Eliseev the document you have uploaded as a source, https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000069490036191& , is a 170 year old Russian book. I use the term "book" very loosely as it is just an 80 page list of names(?) and dates in Cyrillic, as a source i would rate it as a 1/10, what is the list and what sources is it based on? A 170 year old translation of Nestor's Chronicle would likely be just as reliable as a modern translation but a 170 year old list with no apparent references is junk no better than copying a tree from Ancestry.

Is there no modern Russian research that you can give us an insight to?

The tree you have made seems to me to be a combination of the Nestor and Primary Chronicles, which is what the Geni tree is except that on the World Tree Rurik has been disconnected from his mother Umila (see this page for justification https://www.geni.com/projects/Theroised-husbands-of-Umila-potential... ).

Charles Cawley on his site Medlands ( http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/RUSSIA,%20Rurik.htm#_Toc481496211 ) lays out Rurik's family based on the Primary Chronicle: Rurik, two brothers, Rurik's son (Igor) and an vaguely related Oleg. Is this in your opinion an accurate representation of the Primary Chronicle? If not why not and based on what?
On Geni the two "brothers" have been disconnected from Rurik, Igor is here but Oleg is too vague for connection.

My impression from reading various internet pages is that Nestor's Chronicle names Rurik's mother (Umila) and a wife (Efanda) and infers another unnamed wife and child. Is this in your opinion an accurate representation of the Nestor Chronicle? If not why not and based on what?
On Geni the mother has been disconnected from Rurik, the two wives are still connected and the additional child, with names for the second wife and daughter. I have no idea where the second wife's name and daughter's name have been sourced from, do you?

Given that Umila has been disconnected from Rurik's profile as unconfirmed my thinking is leaning towards disconnecting both wives and the daughter, this would revert the tree to being closer to the Primary Chronicle without anything from Nestor (as I understand it). Discussing the sources and agreeing on how to maintain the World Tree is far more useful than building a duplicate tree which will just end up being deleted in a week or two.

Алекс! В качестве источника к профилям Рюриковичей я прикладываю их поколенну. роспись (родословную роспись) составленную известным историком Головиным.
https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000069490036191&amp
Это не книга, это небольшая ее часть. Одновременно я сверяю данные по нескольким источникам! Роспись - список Рюриковичей по поколениям... Современные авторы только цитируют книги, которые у меня есть в оригинальных изданиях!

This is a list of Rurik's descendants by generations from the book of the famous Russian historian Golovin

Whether Golovin is famous is irrelevant. Famous people get stuff wrong too.
Unless he cites his sources his list is just a list with no more credibility than anyone else's.

If modern historians are discussing and quoting books which you own could you perhaps share some links to those modern discussions? Google translate does quite well with Russian to English.

https://www.runivers.ru/bookreader/book473034/#page/1/mode/1up

http://heathen.su/library/pvl.html

Меня очень интересует оригинальный полный текст Баумгартена 1934 года издания, но не могу его найти...
I am very interested in the original full text of the 1934 Baumgarten edition, but I can't find it...