Rurik, Founder of the Rurikid Dynasty - Rurik probably had Finnish roots

Hello again, when I started this post I did it because of the findings of archaeologists made from Gamla Uppsala, Birka etc
ie from the great Finnish presence in the tombs.
But also from how today's male Y-DNA map, which also shows a great Finnish presence in northern Scandinavia, Finland, Baltic countries and Russia.

It does not rule out that there were Germanic tribes there too. I just want to highlight that there are new findings. That much of the history of Finnish people has been hidden is not strange after occupation from both Sweden and Russia for many centuries.

Here is a map showing an approximate spread of language 1000AD, it also shows that the presence of Finnish-ural languages ​​was large throughout northern Europe. This strengthens what I previously found from archaeological finds.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/28/76/ec/2876ecd077d988ee87b3e403baf...

If now anyone looking at the map asks why it is still Finnish presence 1000AD in Småland in southern Sweden, it is because Finnish people were among the early tribes also there. Finnveden in Småland was visited by Jordan in the 500's and described the "Finnaithae" as one of Scandinavia's early tribes.
https://allmogen.org/folkland-smaland/

Yes Christina, we are 15th cousins and by chance, the common grandfather leading to us both is a Great example of what I have been writing of in my postings in this thread:

Klaus Klausson Slaweka, d.y

Klaus Slaweka (the younger) from the Slaweka family: original Slavonian Vends from Rügen on the Baltic southern coast. Full of Vendian DNA - yet Swedified for generations and now part of Swedish Culture and History. The main base of the Slaweka family was in Uppland (now we are there again!) in the Parish of Fasterna (45 minutes drive from my home).

If you visit Sweden you can see the remnants of Mörby Castle and also the Parish church - really interesting excursion and a beautiful place!

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6rby_slottsruin

Christina! You found a very good example for me to work on, in this debate!

Best regards
Amir

Sorry Arja, but I do not agree with you that Finland was "occupied" by Sweden. Finland was a part of Sweden just as Östergötland and Västergötland or Småland. Alot of both Swedish and Finnish Historians, agree on this point. Try to find the book "Riksdelen - Stormakt och Rikssprängning 1560-1812" by Nils Erik Villstrand and there a many more academically written books on this matter. The "occupation" is nothing but a Nationalistic invented construction of the last 200 years. No occupation. No colony.

Please give us the source of this Map:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/28/76/ec/2876ecd077d988ee87b3e403baf

Best regards
Amir

Amir* M Sherif, I can give you a better example.

My in-laws are both Finnish born with Finnish ancestry at least back to the 1500s, my wife is Australian born and has only visited Finland once as a child.

If she invaded Russia today would CNN report that a Finnish woman was the new ruler of Russia? Of course not, they would say an Australian woman.

Да! Текст написанный рукой самого Нестора не сохранился! Сейчас он доступен для прочтения в копиях 15 века! Но это не ставит под сомнение оригинальность самого текста, так как в этой части текст совпадает в нескольких ранних копиях! В многочисленных переводах текст искажается! По тестам ДНК признанных потомков Рюрика, по мужской линии он финн! Ильменьские словени (словяне) поселились на берегах озера Ильмень в 7 веке! Коренным населением, жившим до этого вокруг озера Ильмень, были финны (карело-финны)! Озеро Ильмень и Ладожское озеро в древности называли морями!
Yes! The text written by the hand of Nestor is not preserved! Now it is available for reading in copies of the 15th century! But this does not question the originality of the text, as in this part of the text is the same in several early copies! In many translations the text is distorted! DNA tests on the recognized descendants of Rurik, on the male line, he's Finn! Ilmen Slovenes (Slavs) settled on the shores of lake Ilmen in the 7th century! The indigenous population who lived around lake Ilmen before were the Finns (Karelians-Finns)! Lake Ilmen and lake Ladoga in ancient times called the seas!

CNN reports what they are dictated to report. If the transatlantic Military-Industrial complex wants to grab the oil in the Middle East, they let CNN invent story after story to prepare the public, and then they send in the missiles followed by troops.

But yet, they would must probably, as you say, report that a Australian woman has taken power - just according to what I am writing about cultural assimilation by generations.

To Александр Евгеньевич Елисеев

You write "The Novgorod Prince Rurik was the son of the leader of one of the Karelian-Finnish tribes, who lived on the shore of Lake Ilmen in the Slovenian city of Russa (Old Russ)! At that time, the geography was known poorly Novgorod is also located on the shore of Lake Ilmen! To Sweden Rurik relations not had! "

Interestingly, then my headline in the post may be correct.
The other side of the sea was perhaps not Baltic Sea, as many believed, but rather Lake Ilmen.
Ilmen is what I also understand a Finnish name? So Russ came from Ilmen, not from Roslag in Sweden, as many have believed.

Dear Arja!
Finnveden in Småland has nothing to do with Finnish people.
The name is explained here:

"The Scandinavian placenames Finnveden, Finnmark and the province of Finland (which gave name to Finland) are all thought to be derived from finn, an ancient Germanic word for nomadic "hunter-gatherers" (as opposed to sedentary farmers, cf. to find"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnveden

(Varje gång jag FINNER något så handlar det om Finland??)

So please give me the source of the Map.
Best regards
Amir

Alexander Eliseev I think the point Amir is making is that people who could be genetically identified as Finns were living across a broad swathe of Northern Europe and the fact that Rurikids descendants DNA indicate they are part of that group it does not tie them to a specific geographical location.

В Новгороде в настоящее время более 30% мужчин являются потомками финнов Y-DNA N1c1, хотя разговаривают они на русском (славянская языковая группа) и считают себя русскими! Тесты ДНК потомков Рюрика подтверждают его местное происхождение! Новгород находиться на берегу озера Ильмень, а не на берегах Балтийского моря! Шведы никогда не владели этой территорией!
In Novgorod currently, more than 30% of men are descendants of Finns Y-DNA N1c1, although they speak Russian (Slavic language group) and consider themselves Russian! DNA tests on Rurik's descendants confirm his local origin! Novgorod is located on the shore of lake Ilmen, not on the shores of the Baltic sea! The Swedes never owned this territory!

Okay, now we're in Vikings, there's a time called Viking Age, but who were the Vikings?
There is a famous author and journalist in Sweden, Jan Guillou, who wrote this in 2000:
"At the time of Sweden's loss of Finland, there was no" viking age "in our history writing. The term meant was just the younger Iron Age. And the word" viking "was hardly known and had only been used in poetry once by Erik Gustaf Geijer, as in a Nerdy about Lord Nelson had described this as "viking." The word meant villain, seafarer, niding, robber.
However, the Reformist intellectuals gathered in 1811 together in a union for the worship of the great-great past, known as the Gothic League. And in the first journal of the association, Geijer wrote a poem that would be very famous. It is called "Vikingen", and produces an adventurous hero type just as we imagine it today. Esaias Tegnér also became street listener and finally wrote "Fritjof's saga" which today plagues Swedish schoolchildren. Artists were called under the tabs and began to paint pictures of these "vikings", for now the meaning of the word changed to mean hero, great fighter and so on. In the imagination of the artists, these "Viking's" appearance appeared and soon the creation of the legend was an entire industry.
In the latter part of the 19th century, it became clear that the end of the younger Iron Age was such an important period that it must have its own name - the Viking Age.
And today, this propaganda mood has been so deep that we almost perceive all people who lived in Scandinavia during the younger Iron Age as "vikings."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Guillou
http://wwwc.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0010/16/guillou.html

Exactly Alex. Genetics is one thing, cultural assimilation is something else. This is also a great point when discussing with over-nationalistic groups in Sweden. Sweden has never been isolated, it is very much heterogenous by genetic standards - yet by cultural standards it has its own way - lika all other nations.

Еще раз! Нестор: "Те варяги назывались русью, как другие называются шведы, а иные норманны и англы, а еще иные готландцы."
Nestor: "Those Vikings were called Rus, others are called Swedes, and others Normans and angles, and still others gotlanders."

Arja - you are partly right in this. Maja Hagerman and many more have written about these matters.
Of course there have been Marine Troops around the Baltic sea for a very long time, either fighting for a leader or a group or by themselves. Call them pirates or Vikings or whatever you wish. The younger Iron age was designated the Viking Age, not much we can do about it. Yet there are a number of distinct cultures interacting with each other across the Baltic.

Yet, don´t forget that Kalevalla was compiled in the approximate same time. I cannot imagine that any modern Finn today would consider education for Finnish schoolchildren about Kalevalla today would be a "plague"?

The Finns take pride in that and in their nations history.

So please, all nations have their stories, more or less correct and I look forwards to the day when Swedish school-children actually will read more of Tegnér and the classics.

Classical reading is absolutely normal in all nations in Europe but soooo "outdated" in Sweden - too bad!

Александр Евгеньевич Елисеев
Repeat: Rus from Roslagen were Sviones.
End of repeat.

Александр Евгеньевич Елисеев you write

"In Novgorod currently, more than 30% of men are descendants of Finns Y-DNA N1c1, although they speak Russian (Slavic language group) and consider themselves Russian! DNA tests on Rurik's descendants confirm his local origin! Novgorod is located on the shore of lake Ilmen, not on the shores of the Baltic sea! The Swedes never owned this territory!"

(a) Old Novgorod - Holmgård was established by Svionian Rus from Roslagen. There is also archeological evidence for that.
(b) You have inveted a story about somebody who came from lake Ilmen and established a dynasty. No evidence.
(c) The route over Novgorod was a trading route for Svionic tradesmen and warriors (Varangians) along the rivers down to Byzantium.

Who "owned" what is of minor importance.

Best regards
Amir

Амир! Не искажайте историю предположениями! Тому о чем Вы говорите нет доказательств! Новгород основали ильменские словени!!! Новый Город (русское название)!!! Другого названия Новгород не имел!
Amir! No distortion of history assumptions! What you're talking about is not proof! Novgorod was founded by Ilmen Slovenes!!! New City (Russian name)!!! Novgorod had no other name!

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%B3%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BD%...

Just to reinforce the article that Jan Guillou wrote about the Götiska Förbundet, I want to show with this graph that from all books that Google scanned, the word viking first mentioned a bit in 1830.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=viking%2Cnorse%2Cdane...

When I search Sviones and Varyags :

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=varyag%2Cvarjager%2Cv...

Alexander - we have different opinions on this and we cannot convince each other.
Best regards
Amir

Arja

If you search Svear (instead of Sviones), you get this
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=svear&year_start=...

Потомки Рюрика Y-DNA N1c1 (финны)! Кто из потомков шведских викингов относится к Y-DNA N1c1?
The descendants of Rurik Y-DNA N1c1 (the Finns)! Which of the descendants of the Swedish Vikings refers to Y-DNA N1c1?

and if you search Holmgard
you get this

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Holmgard&year_sta...

And here is something well written in Swedish about the Rus/Sviones utilizing the network along the Russian rivers which they also were part of in establishing:

https://www.svd.se/hur-tog-sig-vikingarna-till-miklagard

Okay, Amir, but I try to find historical information written before 1800, so I searched for Svioner

Reply to Alexander: What about our Great grandfather Rurik? The Svionic Rus from Uppland/Roslagen with some Finnish (or Estonian, or Vepsian DNA)?

Да! Я был шокирован, когда узнал, что Рюрик был Y-DNA N1c1 финном!
Yes! I was shocked to learn that Rurik was a y-DNA N1c1 Finn!

Alexander - the mixture of people around the Baltic Sea for thousands of years does not make this impossible. Today in Finland you find alot of people whose ancestors 4-5 generations back were Swedish in ALL aspects (also genetically), but changed to Finnish surnames during the 1800s (Fennoman movement
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fennoman_movement ) and today consider themselves as 100% Finnish - whatever DNA they have.

Best regards

Вы не ответили на вопрос, кто их известных вождей шведских викингов был генетическим финном?
Финская теория происхождения Рюрика была изложена Василием Никитичем Татищевым в середине 18 века, но была мало известна, так как противоречила официально принятой теории! Сейчас получается, что Татищев был прав, читайте Татищева!
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%...

okay, I have not read the Nestorian chronicle yet but I have started reading Novgorod Chronicle translated into Swedish. It is very clear in the book that Novgorod / Russians and Karelians cooperate in the city and are fighting on the same side. They also co-operate with Ladoga. Svear is mentioned in the chronicle for the first time in 1142 when King and Pope were in battle with 3 visiting ships on their way to Ladoga. The Svear King brought 60 shells / snips, a type of rowing boat that was common in Northern Europe. Nothing was achieved but 150 Svear died.
Both Ladoga and Novgorod appear to have been important and major trading cities during this time.
But, as I understand, there were many battles far earlier against different Polish tribes, other Finnish tribes than Karelians, Baltic tribes, Danes and others before there were any struggles with Svear in the chronicle. But there are more mentioned after 1142, such as 1164 when the Ladoga people closed the city and burned their houses themselves while calling for help from Novgorod.
Both sides suffered greatly. The Svear came in 55 rowboats, 43 were conquered or destroyed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_First_Chronicle