Rurik, Founder of the Rurikid Dynasty - Rurik probably had Finnish roots

https://web.archive.org/web/20070903130329/http://www.familytreedna...

There are 2 thread on this topic, the other is this as you know, https://www.geni.com/discussions/207771?msg=1372708

If you Alexander actually follow both, then you should notice the latest post also.
"In general, the genetic data indicates that the most likely region of residence of the closest paternal ancestors of Rurik to be in the territory of Sweden.

Thus, the genetic data fully confirms the historical accounts of the early Russian chronicles about the Scandinavian origin of Rurik." By Reidar Holmsen.

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I have in earlier post given a reasonable theory, about Ruriks ancestors, but it is only plausible because of no existing contemporary sources. It is, the only good plausible explanation so far that takes evrything in account, his name, his childs name, the close connection to other kings in west, the very development of the history when it comes to the spreading of the idea of one king in one greater land from have been many petty kings or chieftains in many small territories.

It also shows/explains that the ruling family in the southern and western parts of Scanfinavia is connected as in one ruling family and the leadership is just like a company with shareholders and the only ones that can be presidents in this business is the one connected by blood.

To fully see and understand what I wrioe, you have to understand history, migration patterns, culture, traditions, and be able to set it in this context. Otherwise, it's a waste of time to try to understand, because how people do things today probably will ruin your understanding if you think that it's the same today and has always been so. Today, a nobody like Hitler could be a leader, Stalin, from nowhere from a very broken family, or Putin, or to name all the worthless two half brain cells people who have become unreasonable rich with the only fortune in their luggage to have been the right man in the right place doing what they do with a limited competition, like Ikea founder who started his business by selling matches and become the richest man in Sweden.

1. This is important, then, there were two kind of people, free men and slaves.
2. The hierachy was very strict.
3. You could not jump from a lower position into the top layer. You could at the other hand go from being a slave to become a free man on the basis of merit.
4. Religion, from have been polytheistic communities it succesively change into christianity, a change driven by the ruling elite spreading from the collaps of the Roman Empire gradually all the way from the south up to the north and last of all, into the east, just the same way/route more modern kingdoms were established.
5. A lot of circumstantial evidences pointing in one direction, taxes, who paid who, new customs including skalds at court, hirdmen according to the Scandinavian model, kings from Denmark, Sweden, Norway who used Novgorod as a sanctuary under the following 300 years and opposite, ruler from east goes west when in need.
6. The name of Rurik, how it would be possible that he was indeed related to Rhörek, just another spelling, and how it could be that his son Igor, (Ingvar) just is a contribute to his forefather Ivar, (these name means warrior).

I could go on and on, but its enough for time being.

Это Ваши предположения! Точных данных нет! Кто из Королей Дании, Швеции или Норвегии имел Y-DNA N1c1?
Зато близкую Y-DNA N1c1 имеют потомки Литовских князей!

This is your assumption! There is no exact data ! Which of the Kings of Denmark, Sweden , or Norway had Y-DNA N1c1?
But the descendants of Lithuanian princes have a close Y-DNA N1c1!

Рюрик не мог быть прямым потомком скандинавских богов!
Rurik could not be a direct descendant of the Norse gods!

Alexander Eliseev Okay, you've just proved that you're just an ordinary internet troll, everything you write is off-topic, just circles around the topic or any particular insistence, nothing you write is to be considered as serious. I see no personal capacity to gain an accurate and deep intuitive understanding of neither events or things, bad, yes.

Не Вам решать! Ваше интуитивное понимание не опирается на факты! Ваши утверждения, что все люди, кроме скандинавских королей были рабами, верх цинизма и невежества!

It's not up to You to decide! Your intuitive understanding is not based on facts! Your claims that all people except the Scandinavian kings were slaves are the height of cynicism and ignorance!

Рюрик был язычником! До принятия православного христианства в Новгороде поклонялись славянским языческим богам, что подтверждено результатами археологами! Пантеон славянских языческих богов иной, чем у скандинавов!

Rurik was a pagan! Before the adoption of Orthodox Christianity in Novgorod worshipped Slavic pagan gods, which is confirmed by the results of archaeologists! The Pantheon of Slavic pagan gods is different from that of the Scandinavians!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peryn

Juan Carlos: The link you are referring to and Vasily Tatishchev's story written in the late 18th century is difficult to take really seriously. Vasily Tatishchev does not even seem to know where Novgorod is geographically. The other historical sites and people are mixed.

Василий Татищев хорошо знал где находится Новгород! Книги Татищева надо читать в оригинальном издании 18 века! В интернете сейчас огромное количество спекуляций на эту тему! Татищеву и Нестору приписывают то, о чем они никогда не писали!

Vasily Tatishchev knew well where Novgorod was ! Tatishchev's books should be read in the original edition of the 18th century ! There is a huge amount of speculation on this topic on the Internet right now! Tatishchev and Nestor are credited with something they never wrote about!

"The official Christianization of Kievan Rus' is widely believed to have occurred in 988 AD, when Prince Vladimir was baptised himself and ordered his people to be baptised by the priests from the Eastern Roman Empire."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Church
More than 100 years after Rurik's death.

http://www.ointres.se/carellk/sida0/h_____6t.htm

I just referred to the text in the link I received. Read this text and you will understand.

Василий Татищев жил в 18 веке и не мог знать результатов современных генетических экспертиз, однако он первый из историков указал на финское происхождение отца Рюрика, хотя он не знал его имени!

Vasily Tatishchev lived in the 18th century and could not know the results of modern genetic examinations , but he was the first of the historians to point out the Finnish origin of Rurik 's father, although he did not know his name!

Ссылка ведет на не на подлинный текст Татищева, а на современную фальсификацию!

The link does not lead to the original text of Tatishchev, but to a modern falsification!

http://www.ointres.se/carellk/sida0/h_____6t.htm

У меня есть все книги Василия Татищева в оригинальном издание 18 века! Большая часть книг издана при его жизни, а только последние тома изданы после его смерти! У Татищева написано, что до Новгорода Рюрик был правителем в Финляндии!

I have all the books of Vasily Tatishchev in the original edition of the 18th century ! Most of the books were published during his lifetime, and only the last volumes were published after his death! In Tatishchev it is written that before Novgorod Rurik was the ruler in Finland!

Автор, который пишет, что Рюрик в 9 веке получил письмо из Старой Ладоги, имеет тяжелую форму психического расстройства!

The author who writes that Rurik received a letter from Staraya Ladoga in the 9th century has a severe form of mental disorder!

:D

A very interesting database with birch bark messages and documents:

http://gramoty.ru/birchbark/document/show/novgorod/203/

A map of excavations from Novgorod
http://arc.novgorod.ru/second.php3?content=excavation/ex_all&me...

Alexander Troll PROOF!
Alexander Eliseev

1. "Your claims that all people except the Scandinavian kings were slaves are the height of cynicism and ignorance!"

Please cite me where I wrote that.

2. Rurik was a pagan! Before the adoption of Orthodox Christianity in Novgorod worshipped Slavic pagan gods, which is confirmed by the results of archaeologists! The Pantheon of Slavic pagan gods is different from that of the Scandinavians!

Please, have you read what I wrote about it at all?

This is just examples from this side, 15, it is in fact your way to do it all a long, just completly wrong.

Вы пишите откровенный вздор, а именно:

You write outright nonsense, namely:

1. This is important, then, there were two kind of people, free men and slaves.
2. The hierachy was very strict.

Новгородская Республика была самостоятельным огромным государством до 1478 года!
В 11-15 веках в Новгороде дети учились в русскоязычных школах и многие женщины были грамотными!
Это признано научным сообществом!

The Novgorod Republic was an independent huge state until 1478!
In the 11th and15th centuries in Novgorod children studied in Russian language schools and many women were literate!
This is recognized by the scientific community!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Republic

Very interesting books

Evgenij.N. Nosov New data on the RYURIK GORODISHCHE near Novgorod
http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA4_73.pdf

Viking Rus: Studies on the Presence of Scandinavians in Eastern Europe
AvWladyslaw Duczko
p 103 ff
https://books.google.se/books?id=hEawXSP4AVwC&pg=PA101&lpg=...

Medieval Russian Fortresses AD 862–1480
Konstantin Nossov
https://books.google.se/books?id=WVu1CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA35&lpg=P...

Alexander Eliseev How do you translate this word, "slaves"?

Не беспокойтесь за правильность перевода! Кроме того, мне известна сословная иерархия в скандинавских странах эпохи викингов! В древнем Новгороде была иная общественная организация и скандинавские законы не действовали!

Don't worry about the correct translation! In addition, I know the class hierarchy in the Scandinavian countries of the Viking age! In ancient Novgorod there was a different public organization and the Scandinavian laws did not apply!

Ulf and Alexander:
Special claims are still presented here, without sources. Or else the sources are the "chronicles" of post-turning stuff.
The scientific fact is that the N-haplogroup yDNA is the paternal lineage of Rurikids - which identifies the origin.
If it is alleged that Rurik is of Swedish origin. It's not right.
The origin of the Swedes is only the origin of the Finnish N-group men. From about 1000 to 2000 BC. The typical origin of the Swedes is not indicated by the N-haplo group (it is the I-haplo group).
The N-group Finnish lineage and FU-language origin appear in the following two sources.
1. N-group and RURIK origin - Source >
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_N1c_shtmlY-DNA
N- Group Origins & History
Haplogroup N is a descendant of East Asian macro-haplogroup NO. It is believed to have originated in Indochina or southern China approximately 15,000 to 20,000 years ago.
- It would have progressively spread across Siberia until north-eastern Europe, possibly reaching the Volga-Ural region around 5500 to 4500 BCE..
Mazurkevich et al. 2014 confirmed the presence of N1c in the Comb Ceramic culture with a sample from the Late Neolithic site of Serteya II in the Smolensk region of Russia, near the Belarussian border, which dates from the middle of 3rd millenium BCE.
The Bronze Age Indo-European Fatyanovo–Balanovo culture (3200-2300 BCE) progressively took over the Baltic region and southern Finland from 2,500 BCE.
The phylogeny of N1c1 shows that the split between Balto-Finnic and Uralic (including Ugric) peoples took place around 4400 years ago, downstream of the L1026 mutation, almost exactly at the start of the Kiukainen culture (in Finland). The Uralic branch (Z1934) formed first, around 4200 years ago, followed by the Ugric branch (Y13850) and eventually the Balto-Finnic branch (VL29) 3600 years ago.
The latter immediately split between the Chudes (CTS9976), to the east, and the Balto-Finns (L550) to the west.-to Rurik-Clan N- Y4338* and the Fennoscandians (Y4706) and Balts (N- L1025- M2783) bifurcated around 2600 years ago...
Lamnidis et al. 2018 tested six 3500 year-old individuals from the Kola Peninsula in northwest Russnd identified the two male samples as members of N1c-L392. They were all autosomally cia alose to modern Uralic people from the Volga-Ural region and possessed typically Uralic mtDNA lineages (C4b, D4e4, T2d1b1, U4a1, U5a1d, Z1a1a).

A small percentage of N1c1 is found among all Slavic, Scandinavian populations, as well as in most of Germany (except the north-west). Its origin is uncertain at present, but it most probably spread with the Iron Age and early Medieval (Proto-) Slavic tribes from Russia, Belarus and Ukraine toward East Germany. The Scandinavian N1c1 has three potential sources:
1. Progressive assimilation of the northern Sami populations by Scandinavian/Germanic people since the Iron Age
2. Immigration from Germany and Poland in the last two millennia.
3. Population exchange with Finland and the Baltic countries when these came under Scandinavian rule, particularly during the eight centuries of political union between Sweden and Finland.

**********************************************
2. The second is international yDNA genetic / linguistic research.
It notes the arrival of the Finnic N haploid group from Asia-Europe to the Baltic Sea environment, including Scandinavia.
These Finnic haploid men (Group N) brought FU (Finnic-Urals) languages to Europe (and Scandinavia). Research link here> https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_N1c_shtmlY-DNA

Regards Seppo Liukko 03/14/2020

https://web.archive.org/web/20070903130329/http://www.familytreedna...

Я верю, что отец Рюрика был вождем одного из финских племен! Большинство современных потомков Рюрика по мужской линии имеют Y-DNA N1c1!

I believe that Rurik's father was a chief of one of the Finnish tribes ! Most modern male descendants of Rurik have Y-DNA N1c1!

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_N1c_Y-DNA.shtml

It doesn't matter so much what you believe, the fact that his name was Rurik is a strong indication that he was a part of the western sphere, no matter if he actually was born or lived as a young man in parts of Finland. Rurik is not at all an origin finnish name, and name giving traditions suggest that one of his forefathers also with high probability has had that name.

Combined, this gives that whole or parts of his parents likely lived and had their origin elsewhere then nowadays Finlandic areas. This is a logical conclusion and not belief.

Correct, historically, the Finno-Ugric peoples were more scattered than they are today. Most of today's Sweden, for example, was formerly inhabited by Finnish-Ugric people, also Norway. Not least during Rurik's time.

the spread of Germanic and Scandinavian languages during the Iron Age

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c2/b6/1d/c2b61d67a32129aaeb82c81f987...

north of these were Finnish Ugric tribes

Rurik was a king i Uppland and his people were called Ruser. They went to the east and created the land of the ruser - Ryssland. In Uppland their land was called Roslagen