Rurik, Founder of the Rurikid Dynasty - Rurik probably had Finnish roots

Started by Arja Inkeri Terävä on Friday, July 20, 2018
Problem with this page?

Participants:

Profiles Mentioned:

Showing 361-390 of 469 posts

На берегу озера Ильмень есть город Старая Русса, основанный Ильменскими Словенами в 7 веке! В 10-11 веках город назывался Русса и был хорошо известен! В Руссе было значительное славянское и финское население! Огромное озеро Ильмень в древности называли морем! На территории современной Финляндии есть холм с аналогичным названием! Возможно, что там тоже был одноименный древний город!

On the shore of lake Ilmen, there is the town of Staraya Russa, founded by Ilmen Slovenes in the 7th century! In the 10th and 11th centuries the city was called Russa and was well known! Russ had a significant Slavic and Finnish population! The huge lake Ilmen was called the sea in ancient times! There is a hill with the same name on the territory of modern Finland! It is possible that there was also an ancient city of the same name !

Simple logic.

1. One group of people have problem and ask another group of people outside from them to solve it. This is according to fact.

The other group could not have been the same people as the first group=Ilmen Slovenes are ruled out completly.

2. The same group of people remember that when the other group of people was in charge, it was peace and order. This is what they seek.

The other group according to all sources, and proof from archaeology, says that it was people from the west, varjager, = men from north, svear that was the same people who earlier had been there.

According to Heimkringla and Hervara saga, it all started with Ivar Vidfamne between the year 650 and before the year 700. It does not matter if Ivar did exist, but it is a fact that the svear kings sitting in Birka, (grounded ca. 700) in Svitjod was the ones who took the ransom from east under a period of at least 100 years, they were all grand and great grandsons of Ivar.

In order to collect taxes, they (the svear) build a trade station and beside it a fort at all the places they were interested of keeping and then placed their own men in them.

Beside the trading it also guarenteed the safety for the people around them, protecting them from thieves, robbers and other folk who wanted to benefit on them, the downside was that they had to pay a yearly tribute, but the advantage was greater as they had peace and order, (according to the same chronicler).

---------
Learn.
Trade routes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_route_from_the_Varangians_to_th...

Нестор: "Те варяги назывались русью, как другие называются шведы, а иные норманны и англы, а еще иные готландцы."
Nestor: "Those Vikings were called Rus, others are called Swedes, and others Normans and angles, and still others gotlanders."

Вы строите свои умозаключения на отдельных фрагментах русскоязычной летописи Нестора, которые были неправильно переведены и неверно истолкованы! Нестор однозначно указал на тот факт, что Рюрик не был шведом! Назовите имя хоть одного известного шведского викинга имевшего финский Y-DNA N1c1!
Кроме того, шведские драккары не могли подняться по реке Волхов выше Старой Ладоги из-за большого количества бурных речных порогов!

You build your conclusions on separate fragments of the Russian-language chronicle of Nestor, which were incorrectly translated and misinterpreted! Nestor clearly pointed out the fact that Rurik was not a Swede! Name at least one famous Swedish Viking who had the Finnish Y-DNA N1c1!
In addition, the Swedish drakkars could not climb the Volkhov river above Staraya Ladoga because of the large number of rapid river rapids!

В Русско-Византийском договоре 911 года и последующих договорах шведы не упоминаются! А что об этих событиях говорится в шведских сагах? Ничего!

The Russian-Byzantine Treaty of 911 and subsequent treaties do not mention the Swedes! What do the Swedish sagas say about these events? Nothing!

Разрушение древней столицы Шведского королевства Сигтуны зафиксировано в летописях, а случилось это событие летом 1187 года. Согласно описаниям современников, город Сигтуна был сожжен 12 августа, а Юхан, архиепископ Упсальский, при этом был убит. Наиболее древняя шведская летопись, «Хроника Эрика», рассказывает, что воины, разрушившие Сигтуну, были карелами. Хроника описывает события следующим образом:
Карелы нанесли огромный урон, и вызвали волнения в Швеции. Они неожиданно пришли из моря и напали на защитников города. В конце концов, они сожгли Сигтуну. Архиепископ Иоанн был там убит, и многие язычники радовались. В Карелии и Руси это вызвало большую радость, и усилило их военное рвение.
Согласно шведским хроникам, карелы забрали с собой ворота главной сигтунской церкви в качестве военной добычи, которую они затем пожертвовали Новгороду.

The destruction of the ancient capital of the Swedish Kingdom of Sigtuna is recorded in the Chronicles, and this event happened in the summer of 1187. According to contemporary accounts, the city of Sigtuna was burned on August 12, and Johan, Archbishop of Uppsala, was killed in the process. The oldest Swedish chronicle, the Erik Chronicle, says that the warriors who destroyed Sigtuna were Karelians. The chronicle describes events as follows:
The Karelians caused huge damage, and caused unrest in Sweden. They suddenly came from the sea and attacked the defenders of the city. In the end, they burned Sigtuna. Archbishop John was killed there, and many pagans rejoiced. In Karelia and Russia, this caused great joy, and increased their military zeal.
According to Swedish Chronicles, the Karelians took the gates of the main sigtun Church with them as war booty, which they then donated to Novgorod.

During Rurik's time, Finns lived in the Mälar area in what later became Sweden. More and more of the research shows that.

https://portal.research.lu.se/portal/en/persons/ingrid-gustin(d27de...

https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9789004328471/B9789004328471-s01...

https://www.langeen.com/2016/04/10/sa-blev-sverige-ett-rike/ :
"The period 1100-1500 is usually described as Sweden's medieval period. It was also then that the Swedish empire began to take shape. In the 1100s, there were no institutions and no common king. Sweden consisted of different areas where different chiefs and bishops ruled. There could be a king, but often there were more than one. Sweden's first crowned king was Erik Knutsson (1208-1216). Rebellion was common. It was something of a chaos, you might say. There was no government and parliament, no county councils or municipalities, no courts and no universities. There was not much that united the country"

"You build your conclusions on separate fragments of the Russian-language chronicle of Nestor, which were incorrectly translated and misinterpreted! Nestor clearly pointed out the fact that Rurik was not a Swede! Name at least one famous Swedish Viking who had the Finnish Y-DNA N1c1!"

How do I do that? I would need to have some DNA analyze from bones belonging to an actual individ identified as a certain known famous viking, but read this wiki link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A1%C3%B0bar%C3%B0r

Harald Wartooth, (Harald Hildetand) could easily be suspected to fit the description of one king who might have had the Finnish Y-DNA N1c1. I did mention this in an earlier post, and it is still possible that he is a great grandfather to Rurik, even the name Rurik, (Rorik, and with other spellings) goes in that family according to sagas, Aud (Alfhild) Ivarsdotter married, Hrörek of Lejre.

I made it into a child puzzle with a minimum of pieces all based on facts, and you still couldn't lay it out and see the picture, one of the pieces was like if you want to find the thief, follow the money, style.

For me, this proves that you are not interested in the solution, because you have another more fitting solution made up, but it also seems clear that your solution Alexander is based on nationalist/ideological reasons, and no historical facts will make you change your mind. Rurik was a slav who just happened by the lottery of DNA have finnish DNA, SWEDEN at that time did not exist, but FINNLAND did, Also it seems like RUSSIA according to you already then did exist, and had kings, (not mentioned anywhere else than in fictious 1800c writings), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_monarchs why are they not listed?

For me, this is like having a conversation with a stubborn child, not interested in learning any thing new.

This Olof, king in Svitjod in the 9th century, (801 to 900), parentage have not been identified, as I wrote earlier, he could be the same as what is known as House of Olaf, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Olaf

"Olof was a king who, according to a late source, ruled in Denmark in about 900 after usurping power." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olof_the_Brash

There is no actual sources stating Olof's parents, but he was related to the others kings in Svitjod, maybe just as a cousin, and if so, it could go back on Harald Hildetan's side and not on his whole or half brother Randver's side.

Anyway, he had a son named Gnupa, who became father to Sigtrygg Gnupasson, a king of Denmark, 909–915, Harthacnut I of Denmark, took over the power after Gnupas death, because he was summoned to come and aid and Sigtrygg was to young to be a king, Harthacnut (father to Gorm the old) was also a grandson of RagnarLodbroke, so we see a family affair regarding the kings of Denmark, Sweden, all being decendants of Ivar Vidfamne. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harthacnut_I_of_Denmark

There was only two competing dynasties under this time regarding kings and who was able to become one, one called the Ynglings and the other one Scyldingas, Ivar was from the latter of this two, (Harald Fairhair king in Norway (850-932), from the first).

No ordinary men, not belonging to any of this dynasties, would have had any greate succes in taking the power, not for long any way and certainly not long enough for making it into the history, when we know that, it seems obvious that Rurik, got his chans of being ruler solely due to his family background, not his merits.

If he was chieftain of any kind having his roots in the areas of the Baltic Sea, he would guaranteed belonged to one of these two mentioned dynasties, evrything else is unthinkable and unproven. Where do I found a list of Karelian kings in any contemporary source? Where do I find any list of Rus kings earlier than Rurik? It does not exist.

I will make a shortened version. There is many might, and could be and or in this story, but it is the most plausible solution that I can see, not made up on 1800c historian authors fairy tales for adults with new invented myths about ancient kings.

Olof was king in Birka around the year 850, for how long we don't know. Olof was either brother but more likely a cousin to Björn at Håga and his brother Anund Uppsale (mentioned in Vita Ansgarii 844).

Olof might be the same man who is mentioned as king in Denmark 900, and he might have been the father of Rurik, (or his near cousin or brother). He had many sons, not only the two mentioned as Gnupa and Gyrd. Olof was probably born in the 820s.

In 862 Rurik took over the power of the Kievan Rus. There is actually no mentions of his age, but he ought to have been at least 20 years old.

Olof seems clearly to have been of the Scyldingas dynasty, and might have been a grandson, or great grandson of Harald Wartooth, (Harald Hildetand), with the mother Aud (Alfhild) Ivarsdotter, daughter of Ivar Vidfamne https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivar_Vidfamne and his father might have been from Gardarike, named as Radbard of Gardarike which would explain an accepted descendant king /ruler with Finnish Y-DNA, as a part of one of the two ruling dynasties.

At the time when the people in east turned west in order to get help, Olof was the king in Birka. He also possed a lot of ships and men, he also was polytheistic whereof Christianity was one of his many beliefs.

Administration in Svitjod was much decentralized, local high autonomy but under one ruler is a part of what later is known as democracy, it has originated in Scandinavia, and Island is one of the oldest surviving democracy in the world.

The same phenomenon and governance was implemented in the Kievrus, making it common with the ideas that flourished in the western early Scandinavian kingdoms.

A reminder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivar_Vidfamne

Упрямым националистом и русофобом являетесь именно Вы! Вы пытаетесь навязать всем свои фантазии без доказательств! Есть результаты многочисленных археологических раскопок, которые ведутся в Новгородском регионе уже много лет! Результаты раскопок известны ученым всего мира и ни кем не оспариваются! На месте Старой Ладоги в конце 7 века было небольшое шведское поселение, в начале 8 века на этом же месте славяне построили крепость и основали город площадью несколько гектар! Дальнейшее присутствие в шведов в Старой Ладоге и в Новгороде подтверждается, но оно не значительно!

You are the stubborn nationalist and Russophobe! You are trying to impose your fantasies on everyone without proof! There are results of numerous archaeological excavations that have been conducted in the Novgorod region for many years ! The results of the excavations are known to scientists all over the world and are not disputed by anyone! In place of Staraya Ladoga in the late 7th century was a small Swedish settlement in the early 8th century on the same place, Slavs built a fortress and founded the city area of several hectares. The further presence of the Swedes in Staraya Ladoga and Novgorod is confirmed, but it is not significant!

В Новгороде археологи нашли более 1100 бытовых текстов 11-15 веков на русском (славянском) языке! Один текст 13 века написанный кириллицей на финском языке! Текстов на шведском языке не найдено!

In Novgorod, archaeologists found more than 1,100 household texts from 11-15 centuries in Russian (Slavic) language! One 13th century text written in Cyrillic in Finnish! Texts in Swedish not found!

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Берестяные_грамоты

1. Swedish settlement in the early 8th century

2. One 13th century text written in Cyrillic in Finnish! Texts in Swedish not found!

Guess you like making a fool of yourself. Fist the one text about swedish settlement, yes, it's true. Next about the text found in the 13th century, why would they have any text in Swedish at that time? It's a part of Russia and they have their own language.

What I wrote earlier, happens to be about one plausible explanation about Ruriks origin and an attempt to describe his Finnish Y-DNA, and yes it make sense and yes, it is the only reasonable good explanation that anyone so far have come up with, as nothing from any one else here reach up to any kind of minmal logic and analytical level, nothing holds up at all, empty words, empty speculations, just thin air and empty barrels, not even one contemporary source confirming any existence of anyone mentioned, except Rurik himself.

I delivered one theory about his origin, the persons mentioned have existed, the way they took control over Denmark, Sweden and England is a fact, it's also a fact that they belonged to one and the same family, a family that all was the offsprings of Ivar Vidfamne, who was the first known westerner that extorted contributions from the easterner, and made a number of surrounding folks around the Baltic Sea into his own subjects for penalty taxation.

This have nothing to do with if I'm a stubborn nationalist or not, it's a conclusion made from existing sources pointing in only one direction, and it makes a lot more of sense than anything coming from you or anyone else launching strange awkward ideas without traces of any real content, wait a minute, you actually do not have any real explanation at all, isn't it so, just crap?

King Ivar "Vidfamne" Halfdansson King Ivar "Vidfamne" Halfdansson of Sweden, Norway, Denmark and parts of England is your 39th great grandfather. Orgulloso de mis raíces.

Финны жили на берегах Ладожского озера и реки Волхов с очень древних времен! Славяне и шведы основали тут свои первые поселения в конце 7 века! У потомков Рюрика финская Y-DNA N1c1 - практически местная! Более 30% мужчин в Новгороде время имеют финскую Y-DNA N1c1, хотя разговаривают они на русском языке и считают себя русскими людьми! Шведы к этому отношения не имеют!

Finns have lived on the banks of lake Ladoga and the Volkhov river since very ancient times! Slavs and Swedes founded their first settlements here at the end of the 7th century ! The descendants of Rurik have Finnish Y-DNA N1c1-almost local! Russian Russian more than 30% of men in Novgorod now have the Finnish Y-DNA N1c1, although they speak Russian and consider themselves Russian people! The Swedes have nothing to do with this!

Private User город (gorod) means city, town, place, borough, burg.

See also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gord_(archaeology)

Vera, in swedish, gorod is just "gård", it means a settlement where a farmer lives with his family and animals. The word "gorod" in slavic language is a loanword from germanic speakers and have by time got a newer meaning, city, town. It's a fact.

Over to Alexander's idea.

Rurik was brought in from Karelia, there he was a local pesant, his mother was a daughter of a local petty king Gostomysl, all according to Vasily Tatishchev who wrote this in the 18th century with no contemporary sources at all.

This Rurik, with no education and who must have lived a simpel life, turned out to be outstanding as a leader and military strategist, and with his two empty hands and a little help from his two brothers he unified the people and created a kingdom that lasted for over 1000 years, until the Bolsheviks communist destroyed it all and replaced the Tzar with Sovnarkom and the nobility with politruks to govern a mindless and godless people, end of story.

It is a pity that the AI technology still is in an embryonic state, but if we in the future could feed in all avaible info into a computer program with artificial intelligence, it would make a fitting solution based on only facts and historical analyzes, and it wouldn't surprice me at all, if it actually made the same conclusion as I do about the origin of Rurik, and the best thing about it all, no one would accuse the AI for being biased.

О превосходстве германцев над другими народами говорили Адольф Гитлер! Вы его поклонник?
Почему Вы так пренебрежительно к финнам относитесь? То, что Вы русофоб и ненавидите всех славян это понятно! Идеологами коммунистов были Карл Маркс и Фридрих Энгельс - не славяне и не финны!

Adolf Hitler spoke about the superiority of the Germans over other Nations! Are you a fan?
Why are you so dismissive of the Finns? The fact That you are a Russophobe and hate all Slavs is understandable! The Communist ideologues were Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels - not Slavs or Finns!

То, что слово "город" заимствовано славянами из немецкого языка это бред! Славянские языки относятся индо-европейской, группе языков, как и германские!

The fact that the word "city" is borrowed by the Slavs from the German language is nonsense! Slavic languages belong to the Indo- European group of languages, just like Germanic languages!

The use of words depends on how it is developed, nothing much to do with the origin of the original language, in this case, from people who once lived in India, = Indoeuropean language. Word can have a common origin in their structure, but turn out to mean different things in different language due to development.

Examples.
House, originates from hut, from an old word with the meaning hide, to hide something.
дом, originates from a word with the original meaning, timber.
Boat, originates from bite, = split something in pieces, = the wood that is used building the boat.
сарай, (originates from защита - protection, Swedish Skydda) shed, barn, garage, = to guard something.
Gård, to guard something, with fences, stones, etc. to protect a small area.
Boat, Swedish Båt, Russian лодка, here is an example on where the B in the beginning of the word in russian have become a L, in Russian.

Here is an example on how it can shift over to a new letter in the beginning of a word.

Wood, Swedish Ved, Russian дерево, all from an origin word IE. widu, new word from that become divide (Latin) and is also reflected in the russian word derevo, D in the beginning due to influence from Latin.

The letter D, T, V, B, S, K, L, G, J. in the beginning of a word often shifts over time in different languages. This makes it possible to track language that is still more true to the original word, and the ones that have made changes later. The root in many word are often the same, placed in the middle of the word, but sometimes they could shift places, OE-EO, OA-AO. In some cases the whole word is turned in reverse.

Even if both Germanic and Slavic languages both are Indoeuropean languages, we can still talk about loanwords between them, and this has nothing to do with Adolf Hitler or being a russophobe. Take the word CITY as an example, it's root goes back on the same word for sit, in swedish sitta, and it connects to lie, as in lie down. The very small part in the middle of the word, "I" is here the root. The rest around "I" consonants builds up in creating the very nuance in the building of similar word, as in sit, lie, here some people could claim, that the word "city" is from old french going back from latin, but in fact, only the use of the word with exactly that meaning, as in what we now read and understand the word city, do that. So even if we had the same original word, common IE, in our language, we still must say that this is a loanword from old french.
This, you do not understand.

Recontruction, clothes and gifts including glass beads from russia found in a Birka grave. Lets bury Rurik's origin once and for all in a similar manner.
https://i1.wp.com/linda.forntida.se/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/rece...

Рюрик в 9 веке был Новгородским Князем! Огромное государство создали его потомки, а не он сам!
Какое образование имели скандинавские викинги и конунги в 9 веке? Они были грамотны?
Большинство современных потомков Рюрика имеют финскую Y-DNA N1c1 (по классификации 2011 года). Это значит, что Рюрик не мог быть потомком скандинавского бога Одина!

Rurik was a Prince of Novgorod in the 9th century! A huge state was created by his descendants, not by him!
What education did the Scandinavian Vikings and kings have in the 9th century? Were they literate?
Most modern descendants of Rurik have the Finnish Y-DNA N1c1 (according to the 2011 classification). This means that Rurik could not be a descendant of the Scandinavian God Odin!

1. The term ultimately descends from the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European (PIE) root ǵʰortós, enclosure.

2.The Proto-Slavic word *gordъ later differentiated into grad (Cyrillic: град) and gorod (Cyrillic: город), etc.

Nothing new. The word is common in I.E language, and later the menaing changed into town, city.

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A5rd

What education did the Scandinavian Vikings and kings have in the 9th century? Were they literate?

Runestone: The tradition began in the 4th century and lasted into the 12th century

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runestone

В Новгороде и его окрестностях рунических камней нет! Рюрик об этом не позаботился!

There are no Runestones in Novgorod and its surroundings! Rurik didn't take care of that!

Василий Татищев, ссылаясь на древние тексты, которые он лично видел и которые в настоящее время утрачены, писал: Рюрик был женат на Шведской Принцессе Ефанде! У них родился сын Игорь! У Ефанда имела брата по имени Олег! После смерти Рюрика Олег стал Регентом при малолетнем Князе Игоре и воспитывал его!

Vasily Tatishchev, referring to ancient texts that he personally saw and which are now lost, wrote: Rurik was married to the Swedish Princess Efanda! They had a son, Igor! Efanda had a brother named Oleg! After Rurik's death, Oleg became Regent for the young Prince Igor and raised Him!

It's aproblem with lost text, also it's a problem with lost runestones. In Sweden, people do not care about destroying them, it happens at construct sites quite often, because, according to the law, they have to report any findings, but that will cost them time due to the needed excavation so it's easier just to pretend that they never found anything.
The same goes for swedish archeologist, they get paid in advance only to preserve a certain amount of findings, so if they do find 10 vikinga sword, but only get paid for one, they actually send the rest to metal recycling, in fact, Sweden as a nation do not care a lot of their (our) old history, so in return, we have very few people interested in becoming historians or archaeologists specialized in the viking time or skilled at it.

But what you do Alexander is not uncommon, it's called white cleaning, tryiung your best to rewrite history so it better fits a new nationalistic view on your self as a nation and the people living there. It's a wave sweeping over a lots of countries, Finland, do not accept Swedes, Poland don't want to hear about germans building their first towns, Hungarian do not either accept the fact that it was German immigrant that rebuild their nation in the 1200c, not even Belarus accept their connection to Russia, now they say it is a mistranslation of the name Belarussia, not meaning White Russia, but something completly else. France don't want to hear that Charlemange was a Belgian man, and of course, after that russian have bragged about their proud viking ancestors for almost 1000 year, they today do not believe that it could be true, they do not indeed want to be decendant of a bunch of barbarians.

Not much I can do about it.

Приезжайте в Новгород! Приезжайте в Старую Ладогу! Посмотрите результаты археологических раскопок! Там есть небольшое шведское поселение конца седьмого века! Там есть более позднее захоронение Шведов из Упсалы! Есть оружие викингов и таблички с рунами. Но это небольшой процент находок!

Come to Novgorod! Come to Staraya Ladoga! See the results of archaeological excavations! There's a small Swedish settlement from the end of the seventh century! There is a later burial of Swedes from Uppsala! There are Viking weapons and rune tablets. But this is a small percentage of finds!

Русские националисты не признают то, что отец Рюрика был финном! Они считают его славянином!
Генетическая экспертиза показала:
11 современных потомков Рюрика по мужской линии имею "финский" Y-DNA N1c1, а 6 современных потомков Рюрика имеют "славянский" Y-DNA R1a1.
Русские националисты считают, что "блудливая" жена Князя Киевского Владимира Мономаха родила несколько детей от мужа Y-DNA R1a1, а еще несколько детей она родила от любовника - финского холопа Y-DNA N1c1.

Russian nationalists do not recognize the fact that the father of Rurik was a Finn! They consider him a Slav!
11 modern descendants of Rurik in the male line have the "Finnish" Y-DNA N1c1, and 6 modern descendants of Rurik have the "Slavic" Y-DNA R1a1.
Russian nationalists believe that the " lascivious " wife of Prince Vladimir Monomakh of Kiev gave birth to several children from her husband Y-DNA R1a1, and she gave birth to several more children from her lover- a Finnish slave Y-DNA N1c1.

Showing 361-390 of 469 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion