Rurik, Founder of the Rurikid Dynasty - Rurik probably had Finnish roots

Игорь (Ингор - Ингвар)!!! Скорее всего, Игоря назвали в честь его дедушки по материнской линии! Думаю, что отца Ефанды и Олега звали Ингвар!

Igor (Ingor - Ingvar)!!! Most likely, Igor was named after his maternal grandfather! I think that father Efendi and Oleg's name was Ingvar!

Викинг (Норманн) Ингвар
Viking (Norman) Ingvar

Существует версия, что до Рюрика правителем в Старой Ладоге был Викинг Ингвар - младший сын Рагнара Лодброка.... Его называют родственником Рюрика... это надо проверять...

There is a version that before Rurik the ruler in Old Ladoga was the Viking Ingvar, the younger son of Ragnar Lothbrok.... He's called a relative of Rurik... this need to inspect...

>Most likely, Igor was named after his maternal grandfather!

Now we are getting into fantasy and dreams, what are you basing this statement on?

>There is a version ...

Is there? Who wrote this version? Where is it published? Can we have a link to the text, or an article discussing it?

Буду искать источники! То что пишут в осуждениях надо проверять!

I'll look for sources! What you write in the discussions need to check!

The Chudes as mentioned by a monk Nestor in the earliest Russian chronicles, are in 11th century context usually considered as Estonians, although it sometimes referred to all Finnic peoples in north-western Rus. According to the Russian Primary Chronicle Chuds bordered on the Varangian Sea (Baltic sea). In 1030 Yaroslav I the Wise invaded the country of the Chuds and laid the foundations of Yuriev, (the historical Russian name of Tartu, Estonia). They remained until 1061 when, according to chronicles, Yuryev was burned down by the Chudes. According to Old East Slavic chronicles the Chudes were one of the founders of the Rus' state.

The Northern (or eastern) Chudes were also a mythical people in folklore among Northern Russians and their neighbours. In Komi mythology, the Northern Chudes represent the mythic ancestors of the Komi people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnic_peoples
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komi_peoples

"Vägvisaren" ("Pathfinder") from 1987, depicts a Sami legend/saga about conflicts between Sami and Chuds:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinder_(1987_film)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093668/

Strong movie indeed!

This incredibly historically amazing book by M A Castrén should have been translated into English, but I can not find it. It should be in Russian too, I think ...
Ethnologist and philologist in the 1800s. He traveled around the Nordic area and followed the language of the Finnish people to the Altai Mountains in eastern Siberia and China. If anyone knows the trip of the Finnish-Ural people, he is.
Interestingly, his research travels also seem to match today's knowledge of where the Finnish genes originate.
It does not need to be linked even if it looks so.
Unfortunately, only for those who know Swedish:
https://books.google.se/books?id=SbhoAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA40&dq=ry...% 20norden% 20g% C3% A5R% 20en% 20saga% 20om% 20ett% 20urfolk & f = false

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthias_Castr%C3%A9n

start page 40 please in Castren book

" In fact, the legends about Chudes (Čuđit) cover a large area in northern Europe from Scandinavia to the Urals, bounded by Lake Ladoga in the south, the northern and eastern districts of the Vologda province, and passing by the Kirov region, further into Komi-Permyak Okrug. It has from this area spread to Trans-Ural region through mediation of migrants from European North.[citation needed]

Chude has become a swear word in the Arkhangelsk region. As late as 1920 people of that region used legends of the Chudes to scare small naughty children"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chud

Alexander their is a place call Ugaunia in article about Chuds, maybe what you look for? :
"Kievan rulers then collected tribute from the Chudes of the surrounding ancient Estonian county of Ugaunia,[citation needed] possibly until 1061, when, according to chronicles,"

Also a lake called Lake Chud, Псковско-Чудское, but today called Peipus:
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Lake_Chud&redirect=no

The Finnish for 'Russia' is 'venäjä'. 'Sweden' is 'ruotsi' so there is a case the English [low german/friesian] word for 'Russia' is of the same, or similar, root. However, Swedes call themselves 'Sverige', so it might just be coincidental (re the discussion about Roslagen/Roden). Some think it just means, 'red'.

Hey Amir, Igor of Kiev is also my 29th great grandfather [if geni is accurate].

Hi Christine!
Well Geni does bring distant relatives together doesn´t it?!

Sverige - is actually: Svea Rike ( that is "the realm of Svea", or "the Realm of the Sviones")
Ruotsi is belived to have a relation to Rodzlagen/Roslagen/Rus - please see previous discussion!

Best regards
Amir

Thanks Christina!

The link from Erica Howton: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5252-Kvenish-origin-of-Ruri...

In that link Varakko-Ruotsi do not mean sweden, svear, swedes, it means "people who sail the sea" .
At this time there was no Sweden, so it is unlikely that Ruotsi meant Sweden at Rurik's time. I have no idea when Ruotsi became synonymous with Sweden and the Swedish people? Nor was the name Roslagen known at Rurik's time.

I cut from it:
"Then in 1935 Finnish historian - Eero Kuussaari - established a theory that Rurik and his unit of Varangians were Finnish (precisely Baltic-Finnish). According to Kuussaari, the word "Varangian" came from Finnish words "vara / vartio" (which means "guard") or "vaara" (which means "hill" or "danger") and they were called - in their native language - Varakko-Ruotsit, which means "people who sail the seas". Finnish tribes at that time used to construct networks of wooden strongholds located on tops of hills, from which they were sending smoke signals to each other - informing about imminent dangers. In northern part of Norway - in area inhabited by Kvens - an ethnic group who spoke a dialect of Finnish language - there is a peninsula called Varanger, and local people call it Varangin Vuono, Varjakka, Varanka (all these words are Finnish). Historian Kuussaari also proposed a hypothesis, that Rurik was one of Baltic-Finnic people."

I have not seen any other explanation.This theory can explain where the words varjagian, varyags, varjäger come from,

The Roden believes most people mean rowing. But, of course, that may mean "red" too, I'm not against.

red in russian: krasnyy?
in finnish: punainen
in german: rot
in swedish: röd, also röd in norwegian and danish
in estonian: punane

It is difficult..... :)

There were a number of Svionic tribes in different tribal areas [Folkland]. These were called Svear (Sviones) and they had a King and Jarls (Earls).
Rodzlagen wasn´t invented over a night as you want us to believe. Rodzlagen/Roslagen and Rus were connected to each other.

The Iron age and the precceding Bronze age is well documented in Svealand, and all of these periods were before the so called Viking age. I am still waiting for some documentation on the names of Finnish Kings and towns from that time.

All established academic science in Finland, Sweden and Russia support what I am writing, but obviously that is not good enough for you.

The word Varjag is well explained here
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varjager

and here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians

"Medieval Greek Βάραγγος Várangos and Old East Slavic Варягъ Varjagŭ (Old Church Slavonic Варѧгъ Varęgŭ) are derived from Old Norse væringi, originally a compound of vár 'pledge' or 'faith', and gengi 'companion', thus meaning 'sworn companion', 'confederate', extended to mean 'a foreigner who has taken service with a new lord by a treaty of fealty to him', or 'protégé'.Some scholars seem to assume a derivation from vár with the common suffix -ing. Yet, this suffix is inflected differently in Old Norse, and furthermore, the word is attested with -gangia and cognates in other Germanic languages in the Early Middle Ages, as in Old English wærgenga, Old Frankish wargengus and Langobardic waregang.The reduction of the second part of the word could be parallel to that seen in Old Norse foringi 'leader', correspondent to Old English foregenga and Gothic 𐍆𐌰𐌿𐍂𐌰𐌲𐌰𐌲𐌲𐌾𐌰 fauragaggja 'steward'."

Amir, bara ett inflik.

Det började ju med Oden här i norden, dvs. bevisligen efter det andra århundradet, men före år 450, då det är i och med efter honom vi fick dessa idag tämligen löjliga härstamningskrav gällande våra forntida hövdingar och senare kungar, att alla skulle bevisa sig vara hans ättlingar om de skulle göra anspråk på makten.

Oden kom troligtvis från ett område vid Svarta havet, kanske till och med Krim, han tillhörde sannolikt ett östgotiskt folk, men det i sig säger ju bara att västgoter och östgoter ursprungligen tillhört ett och samma folk, men som vandrat åt olika håll, hur som helst, före denna krigarhövding som långt efter sin död blev en gudom, så räknades alla folk runt Skandinavien som ett och samma folk, de var svioner, Suionum hinc civitates ipso in Oceano, Tacitus, dvs. vad vi får är en beskrivning på ett kustfolk, som lever som ett båtfolk.

Efter Oden får vi höra talas om Daner, (Odens folk (min tolkning)), alltså, någon gång mellan år 400-500 så skapas beteckningen Dan, och före år 800 talar i princip alla skandinaver danamål, och götar träder successivt in, troligen först från de danska Jutarna, (men först långt senare skapades delningen Götaland och Svealand under sent 1300 tal). men kanske även från Gotland, hursom så är det götar som sitter i Birka och har makten under 800-900 talet, inte svear, ironiskt nog.

Om vi stannar till mellan 400-600 talet, så var detta en klimatmässigt svår period, kraftiga vulkanutbrott i andra länder skapade långvariga svältperioder amt gav norden ett mycket kallare klimat, det intressanta är ju att det även är då asatron tar en förnyad fart i detta slutskedet, det är troligt att det är då Oden blev uppsatt som en gudom, men tydligen så måste denna nya dyrkan ha betalt sig i folks ögon, för under de nästkommande seklerna så blev ju klimatet successivt allt varmare, det bidrar sammantaget till den nya högkulturen som uppstod i norden.

Det är även troligt att folk i Skandinavien mellan år 200 till 600, delvis var förkristnade, man har funnit kristna reliker som legat i orörda jordlager från folkvandringstiden 375–550, likaså ett kors i Norge daterat till runt år 200, att folk enbart skulle tagit med sig föremål, men inte deras idéer från möten med andra folk runtom i Europa är ju inte trovärdigt, förvisso skulle ju vissa föremål ha kunnat tillhört kristna utländska tillfångatagna slavar som de bevisligen haft åtminstone under 800 talet, men det förutsätter ju att kristna slavar tagits hit redan hundratals år tidigare i så fall.

Asatron genomgick ju ett skifte runt år 500, den blev ju omstöpt, troligen så här, Tyr ut och Oden in, men Tor fick vara kvar då han bringade ordning ur kaos. Under vikingatiden så gav detta sammantaget en ordentlig utdelning i kassan, man kunde därmed betala för ännu större arméer, vikingar och varjager fick ju betalt, därmed kunde man expandera snabbare, ta större byten, kuva andra folk för att slutligen göra sig till kungar i deras länder, men då det senare skedde hade de övergett både vikingatiden och asatron och blivit kristnade, de insåg helt enkelt att bytet man kunde få med kristendomen i ryggen var än större.

Viktigt i sammanhanget är att viking kunde vem som helst i stort sett bli,att skapa ett vikingaplundringståg kunde även vem som helst med skepp och kapital iscensätta, men dessa fristående frilansare gjordes inte till vare sig furstar eller hövdingar, då det inte låg i deras intresse, det handlade enbart om snabba pengar.

Min mening rörande Rurik, är att han tillhörde makteliten innan han fick uppdraget att återta kontrollen i öst, vilket styrks av samtida källor, här nedan i en sammanfattning.

"Jaroslaw, storfurste af Novgorod, f 1054, var en ättling af Rurik en svensk höfding, som med sitt följe blifvit inkallad af slaverna till nuvarande Ryssland. Denne grundade ett rike med Novgorod till hufvudstad, men denna flyttades sedermera till Kiev. De
inflyttade svenskarne kallades rus, dävaraf namnet ryssar uppkommit. Till en början underhölls en förbindelse med moderlandet genom invandrande vikingar, de s. k. varjagerna. Dessa togo äfven tjänst hos den grekiske kejsaren i Konstantinopel, där de bildade det s.k väringagardet. Med Jaroslaws död upphörde förbindelsen med Sverige."

Per Gustaf Berggren, Svensk historia enligt samtida skildringar, 1901. pris, 75 öre.

Ulf, I know the theory from Thor Heyerdahl that Odin might have been a man from the north-eastern Black Sea, and that ostgoths should have lived there, but most have denied that because Azov / Asir was named 1000 years after from Turkish people:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakten_p%C3%A5_Odin
"Azov is believed by Heyerdahl to have derived his name from as-hof-temple of the Æsir. Mainstream linguists and historians will say that the city of Azov got its name from the Turks, over 1000 years after Heyerdahl believes the Æsir lived there. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov

Thanks anyway!

It has nothing with that name Azov to do, look at this gif, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Indo-European_m...
the thing is that it has happened in waves, there exist several theories, for example
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Kurgan_map.png read more at,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urheimat
The Indo European languages spread out 500 B.C
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/IE2500BP.png

---------------------

Termen asar, kan mycket väl gå tillbaka på ett ursprungligt Indoeuropeiskt ord för såväl livskraft som öst, ett urord som senare även fått en andra betydelser i ordet skog, det som sticker fram, jämförbart med t.ex stolpar, bjälkar, samt gett upphov till Skåne, Skan ö, liksom Skandinavien, samt åter förändrats och gett upphov till Dan, som i Danmark, vilket i sin tur allusionerar på just Oden, ordet i sin tur återfinns även i betydelsen udde, som återfinns i ortsnamnet Skagen, har vi folk som lever utefter (då) skogsbeklädda uddar vid vattendrag, så blir det ju ett naturlig sammanhang mellan platserna de lever på och namnen som skapas därefter, att två till synes olika ord har haft ett gemensamt urord är vanligt förekommande, liksom att ord då och då ges nya betydelser, eller redan har flera, som kopplingen till öster, "east", av aus med betydelsen lysa, solen går ju upp i öster, solen får naturen att växa, då är vi tillbaka på livskraft ånyo, samt har ännu en dubbelkoppling i Asar, folk från öst. (betänk även att asarna skulle begravas med huvudena åt öst, i de fall de inte kremerades).

Jag ser det som naturligt att Oden, Woden, betydelsemässigt återfinns i både ved och skog, samt allt som har med skapande att göra liksom Gud. Ord ges nyare betydelser allteftersom behov, i dem alla återfinns alltid, om inte oftast, en kärna med en grundbetydelse, i fallet här, "livskraft", som via avknoppningar gett upphov till namn på både platser och personer, samt diverse nya begrepp, och motsatser, t.ex. dan~död, el. dana, skapa, forma.

Det finns två helt skilda Oden, en ursprungligare och en senare, varav den senare återgiven som mytisk krigarhövding i yngre Eddan och invandrad från "Tyrkland" till Svitjod som efter sin död blivit upphöjd till gud. Jag finner det troligt att så var fallet, Snorres turkland motsvaras av Anatolien i mindre Asien, men detta baseras på återgivningar av muntliga berättelser som kan innehålla spår av sanningar, men är ett verk gjort med hans tolkningar, vad som är saga och sant är ju högst ovisst.

As far as I can see from this recent scientific article [Mittnik et al, Nature communications, 2018] the flows to Scandinavia during Stone age and early Bronze age, were mainly derived from Central Europe and Anatolia.

I note also this sentence in the article:

"None of our male Bronze Age individuals carry Y-haplogroup N, which is found in modern Europeans in highest frequencies in Finland and the Baltic states. Instead, we observe a high frequency of R1a Y-haplogroups"

[R1 haplogroup can be found in > 20% of Swedish males today - my comment]

Interestingly we also find following in the discussion:

"The presence of ancestry from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe among Baltic CWC individuals without the genetic component from north-western Anatolian Neolithic farmers must be due to a direct migration of steppe pastoralists that did not pick up this ancestry in Central Europe. It suggests import of the new economy by an incoming steppe-like population independent of the agricultural societies that were already established to the south and west of the Baltic Sea".

[Not that I believe at all in the Oden-theory of Heyerdahl, and rather believe that Oden/Wotan/Woden-worship is at least 2000 years old and of Germanic origins - mainly unrelated to Pontiac immigration and attached stories].

Anyhow, this finally in the article, is in support of what I have said before:

"We suggest that the Siberian and East Asian related ancestry in Estonia, and Y-haplogroup N in north-eastern Europe, where it is widespread today, arrived there after the Bronze Age, ca. 500 calBCE, as we detect neither in our Bronze Age samples from Lithuania and Latvia"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5789860/

Moving to Skandianavia has taken place on many occasions, from the south and from the north east:

https://www.forskning.se/2018/01/10/sa-befolkades-skandinavien-efte...

"Modern people in Northern Europe can not trace much of their genetic material back to the Mesolithic Scandinavians.
"What we have seen is that 10,000 years ago, after Scandinavia became ice-free, different groups moved into the Scandinavian peninsula.

These migration processes are seen over and over again; later during the Stone Age, during the Bronze Age and during historical times, Mattias Jakobsson says. "

Amir, it is true that a large proportion of men in northern Europe belong to the hablogroup R1a or R1b. It is believed that young hered men came from the Pontic Steppe about 5000 years ago. And almost men, no womens from the Yamna culture. Given how dominant their genes appear to be and how they spread, you may wonder what they did with the men who lived in Europe earlier?
Slaughter???

Arja.They most probably slaughtered the males and male offspring and kidnapped their females.
It was a cruel world.

Most probably many people in, what is Sweden now, have traces from people who entered in the neolitic age and who were farmers.
There are findings from that late part of the Stone Age (pre-Bronze age), not only in Scania (Skåne in the south), but also in the heartland of Svealand:

This from Östra Vrå in Södermanland:
http://samla.raa.se/xmlui/bitstream/handle/raa/4157/rm2006_07_text....

This from Brännpussen in Uppland (approx. 2800-2600 BC):
https://www.upplandsmuseet.se/globalassets/publikationer/rapportser...

This from Djurstugan in Uppland (approx. 2400-2300 BC):
http://samla.raa.se/xmlui/bitstream/handle/raa/3942/rg2005_08_001_0...

This about Ryssgärdet in Uppland (approx. 1900 BC, that is a transitional time between the Neolitic age and Bronze age):
http://www.norstedts.se/nyheter/138088-steniga-backar-doljer-stora-...

Ok Amir, I'm not sure what you want to show with the above links. It shows that Homo Sapiens lived there in the prehistoric times. It also shows that the graves were so-called fire burials / cremations, which was common when people were heathens. When people became Christians, they ended up with fire graves / cremations.
Other findings show that some residences have been inhabited during different historical periods. The findings show that these inhabitants may have been from people from southern Scandinavia but perhaps even from the east of the Baltic Sea. But there is nothing written exactly about this in your links. Only historical findings from people, but we do not know which ones?
Very interesting links but we are a little out of course because these archaeological excavations are not from the time when Rurik lived, neither near before or after.

Catherina II "the Great" Empress of All Russia is Raúl Castro Chacón, Capitán de Navio's 11th cousin five times removed!
Raúl Castro Chacón, Capitán de Navio
Tú → Elba Chacón Silva
your mother → Luis Alberto Chacón Navea
her father → Pedro Nolasco Liborio Chacón Barrios
his father → Maria de la Concepción de la Concepcion Barrios Bustos
his mother → Ángela Bustos y Sanhueza
her mother → Matías Bustos y Baeza
her father → Carlos Bustos y Carvajal Vargas
his father → Úrsula Carvajal-Vargas y Roa
his mother → Juan Marcelino de Carvajal Vargas y Quesada Sotomayor, maestre de campo general de Chile
her father → José Ambrosio de Carvajal Vargas y Arbildo
his father → Luis Jacinto de Carvajal Vargas y Córdoba, encomendero de Guacho, capitan general de Guailas, gobernador de
his father → Isabel de Córdoba y Avendaño
his mother → Pedro de Córdoba y Guzmán
her father → Leonor de Guzmán y Acuña
his mother → Leonor de Acuña y Enríquez
her mother → Inés Enríquez y Quiñones
her mother → Fadrique Enríquez de Mendoza, 2º Almirante Mayor de Castilla, Conde de Melgar y Rueda
her father → Juana Enríquez, Reina consorte de Navarra y Aragón
his daughter → Fernando II el Católico, rey de Aragón
her son → Juana I 'la Loca' de Castilla y Aragón, Reina de Navarra, Aragón, Mallorca y de Sicilia
his daughter → Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor
her son → Maria of Austria - Habsburg, Archduchess, Duchess of Jülich-Cleves-Berg
his daughter → Maria Eleonora von Jülich-Kleve-Berg, Prinzessin von Preußen
her daughter → Magdalene Sibylle von Preußen, Prinzessin, Kurfürstin zu Sachsen
her daughter → Maria Elisabeth von Sachsen, Herzogin zu Holstein-Gottorp
her daughter → Christian Albrecht Herzog zu Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp
her son → Christian August of Holstein-Gottorp, Prince of Eutin
his son → Johanna Elisabeth av Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp
his daughter → Catherina II "the Great" Empress of All Russia
her daughter

Arja. In your posting of 2018-07-20 1:39 PM, you wrote:

"But when Rurik lived, Sweden did not exist and it would take several hundred years before Svear had reached Mälaren, Uppland, Roslagen, ie areas that Rurik believed to be from."

That statement is incorrect. The proto-Svear (proto-Svionics) already lived in these areas in Svealand from Neolotic and Bronze ages.

The country of Sweden did not exist, that there were people there I have never doubted.
And it is probably not the same people today as it was in old times, And who? Your links do not show.

Who do you think? It is quite obvious from the genetic evidence and from the demographic evidence of today that it is the same people, as well as that the majority of eastern proto-Karelians were of Finnish stock and not from any other unknown population.

I am still waiting for that list of Finnish Towns and Finnish Kings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkaim

Amir, during Rurik's time, it was unusual with both towns and kings, not least in Nordic countries. Lands borders were also not at Rurik's time, so people moved around as they wanted. Like the Finnish people who went back and forth on the Baltic Sea, such as the Finnish guards and rowers Varakko-Ruotsit. That is why there is a great Finnish presence in the tombs around Lake Malaren, Old Uppsala, Birka, etc. Even in the tombs of the rulers, but if it feels better for you, we can call them kings. This before and after Rurik's time.
It was the tribes community that was common before, what they called their leaders may have been slightly different from tribe to tribe.

And Amir, because you are stubborn, we can return to your links from prehistoric times and you think there would be evidence of an early Swedish population. It is probably just the opposite. For example, we can take the ceramics:
https://www.helsinki.fi/sv/aktuellt/sprak-kultur/kvinnliga-keramike...

In one of the links, they also mention that they had a Njalla, a kind of stockpile on posts that people have in the north, like the Sami and other Finnish people. It is often linked in the Nordic countries with northern house types, not least they have existed throughout Finland. They belong with hunter cultures
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Njalla

So if it's the same people who have stayed from prehistoric times according to your theory, that's the Finnish people.

Arja!

1. What is the proof that the ceramics were produced by a Finnish-Ugric population?
https://www.helsinki.fi/sv/aktuellt/sprak-kultur/kvinnliga-keramike...

It could as well (or most probably) have been early Germanics who settled in that distinct areas of Finland and Estonia. The map in the article fits very well with the spread of non-Finnish-Ugric genetical material in the present day "Finnish" population

2. There were Jarls and even Kings in both the Gothic as well as Svionic areas preceeding the Viking age, as well as there were towns or encampments.

Varakko-Ruotsit is a narrative to fit in with your story.

Tell us some more about the "Great" Finnish presence in the tombs around Lake Malaren, Old Uppsala, Birka...