Rurik, Founder of the Rurikid Dynasty - Rurik probably had Finnish roots

Dear Arja!
Interesting reading, and with all due respect to Finnish people (which I really admire and like), but please explain to what you mean that "Sweden did not exist"? The Sviones/Svear were described by a couple of Roman authors long before the time of Rurik. In Uppland and in Sörmland there is a lot archeological evidence of large organized tribes during Iron age, many hundred years before the time of Rurik. The mixture of people and individuals across the Baltic see has been going on for ages, so even if Rurik could have hade Finnish-Ugric origins, he might have been a Svion from Roslagen on the coastline of Uppland. Today we have alot of original Finns in Sweden who are second or third generation or even fourth generation immigrants. Some of them now being mixed for one or two generations, what are they? Best regards Amir

correction: should be The Baltic Sea...

Sweden may not have existed by name but the landmass which is now Sweden must have been there

Three only evidence for Rurik's origin is the fact he was described as a Varangian.

DNA studies of surviving Rurikid cannot prove Rurik's DNA because there is no way to prove the common ancestor of the participants of the DNA trials was actually Rurik. For that matter there may never have been a real Rurik.

Still an interesting read, thank you Arja.

Dear Angela!

Not only the landmass, but also the tribes, the archeological evidence, the Roman writings describing the Sviones, the verified historic connections with other civilizations and so forth.
Here you can read some about the connections between Sutton Hoo in England and the Vendel civilization in Swedish Uppland during the 7th century (preceeding the Viking age by a couple of hundred years): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutton_Hoo and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vendel_Period

Best regards
Amir

Today we are a mixture of Scandinavian and Finnish, at least in my family. The question is how old the mix is and when it started? According to my DNA, I'm 80% Scandinavian and 20% Finnish.
Regards Gunnar

Rurik, Founder of the Rurikid Dynasty is Raúl Castro Chacón, Capitán de Navio's 28th great grandfather!
Raúl Castro Chacón, Capitán de Navio
Tú → Raúl Castro Puga
your father → Homero Castro Echeverría
his father → Eloísa Echeverría Castro
his mother → José Ramón Echeverría Ruiz-Tagle
her father → Diego Echeverría Larraín
his father → Mónica Josefa Larraín Lecaros
his mother → Francisco Larrain de la Cerda
her father → Mónica de la Cerda
his mother → Juan de la Cerda Méndez de Contreras
her father → Alfonso Messía de la Cerda Poblete
his father → Alonso Juan Messía de la Cerda Torres
his father → Melchor Messía de la Cerda
his father → Leonor Rodríguez de la Cerda, Señora de La Vega de Armijo
his mother → Alfonso Fernández de la Cerda, Señor de Almendra y Sardeal
her father → Juan Alfonso de la Cerda de Castilla, señor de Gibraleón
his father → Infante de Castilla Alfonso "El Desheredado" de la Cerda, electo rey de Castilla y León
his father → Infante de Castilla Fernando de la Cerda, príncipe heredero de Castilla y León
his father → Da. Violante de Aragón y Hungría, reina consorte de Castilla
his mother → Da. Violante de Hungría, aragóniai királyné
her mother → Violante de Courtenay, Reina
her mother → Peter II, Latin Emperor of Constantinople
her father → Pierre de France, I
his father → Louis VI the Fat, king of France
his father → Felipe I, rey de Francia
his father → Anna of Kiev, Queen Consort of the Franks
his mother → Yaroslav I, the Wise
her father → Vladimir the Great, Grand Prince of Kiev
his father → Sviatoslav Igorevich, Grand Prince of Kiev
his father → Igor of Kiev
his father → Rurik, Founder of the Rurikid Dynasty
his father

Hi, Amir, Mohamed Sharif:

There have been several scientific programs in recent years in Swedish television and also scientific articles in daily press and from excavations that have written about Swedish history. It was only after year 1000 that Svear and Götar began to reach the Mälar-Uppland area and to northern Sweden. Nevertheless, it was not a united kingdom, but for several hundred years there were different tribes.
Here are some maps from around year 1020 and 1219 that explain some about Scandinavia's early history:
https: //sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norges_historia

I myself was born in Sweden from Finnish parents but do not speak Finnish. And on your question what you call those who lived in Sweden for several generations today I do not know. Most people probably call themselves Swedes.

But I am talking about historical time before the realm of Sweden was formed, probably no one called themselves Swedish in the Mälar-area, etc. at the time Rurik lived.
The world hasn't always looked like it does today. And unfortunately, school education may not always be up to date with the latest archeological discoveries.

One of Sweden's most famous historians, Dick Harrison, writes about it in an article, that it took time before Sweden became a united kingdom. Still in the Middle Ages, Sweden had influence from other people with other nationalities that ruled areas in Sweden.
This was from Uppland/Roslagen and throughout northern Sweden, still in the 1100 and 1200s. For example Norwegians, Finns / Karelare and Baltic people.
https://www.svd.se/norrland-lag-utanfor-den-svenske-kungens-valde/a...

I hope I managed to answer what you were wondering about.
Appreciate your feedback

Rurik is my 31st GGrandfather

sorry, correct link over historical maps in Scandinavia
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norges_historia

Thanks Alex!
I agree that we can not prove anything, which is why I did my post. I describe the evidence archaeologists found at their excavations around Lake Mälaren and Uppland, both from Vendel and Viking times. Personally, I think it's interesting to find so much Finnish presence among the grave finds, not least from those who probably stood high up. This tells us some about the people who lived there.

I have been looking for my own roots, hence the interest.

I have understood that there were Finnish people in what is today Russia, Sweden and Norway, which has made clear marks on the names of mountains, lakes and villages. This indicates that the Finnish population was dominant there before the current national borders were drawn up.

Dear Arja!

No I think you are missing some points here. We are not talking about Sweden from the time of unification between the major tribes of Goths (Götar) and Sviones (Svear). My focus is on the main tribe of Svear who were present in Uppland at least at 500 AD.

They were not Finnish but Germanic. You can find a good book on this matter from 2017 (Krigarna från Valsgärde) describing the Vendel-period (approx. 500 AD to 750 AD) preceeding the Viking age. Uppland was for sure inhabited by the tribe of Svear at that time. Roslagen, as you know, is a part of Uppland. So it is not correct that Svear reached Uppland at 1000 AD or later - they were there much earlier.

The article of Dick Harrisson is about the Northern part of Sweden (Norrland) and has nothing to do with Uppland. Tacitus (56-120 AD mentioned the tribe of Sviones) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedes_(Germanic_tribe) and the place Svithiod was mentioned by Jordanes.

Old Uppsala was established as a religious and political center in 3rd-4th century AD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamla_Uppsala and as you can see, it must have taken some time to build the burial mounds of Uppsala Högar (preceeding Rurik with several hundred years). The same with Ottarshögen in Vendel (Uppland) from around 500 AD https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottarsh%C3%B6gen.

Please give us any source claiming that there was no Svionic population and established Svionic societies in Uppland at 500 AD?

Please give us evidence that Old Uppsala was Finnish? There is none, sorry to say.

The ceramics you are giving reference to is not evidence enough, as we all know that people were moving alot across the Baltic in those days, both by free will and as slaves taken in armed conflicts. I think you are drawing too big conclusions on the Haplogroup of the descendants of Rurik. Even if it would be true that Rurik had Finnish origin on his fathers sida, that could be a number of generations with Svionic admixture on the maternal side. Nobody knows. What is yet interesting is to see how the early Rurikides continued to marry from and bring home Brides from Svealand - as for example Ingegerd Olofsdotter of Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingegerd_Olofsdotter_of_Sweden.

The Rurikides maintained alot of communication and relations with the Germanic Sviones for a long time - not to forget how Vladimir the Great had to bring in an army of Varangians from Central Sweden, in order to defeat his half-brothers.

Best regards
Amir

...and by the way (IF Geni is correct!?) Rurik is also my ancestor som 32 generations back in time [...one of the lines below - I have also another line to him through his first wife Rogneda [Ragnhild!] of Polotsk]. So these questions matter to me too!

Best regards
Amir

You
→ Solbritt* Gunvor Maria Sörviken
your mother → Sven Yngve Harry* Sörviken
her father → Ida "Hilda" Augusta Malm
his mother → Anna Maria Malm
her mother → Catrina Petersdotter Sköldberg
her mother → Johanna Andersdotter Kempff
her mother → Anders Kempff
her father → Margareta Sundberg
his mother → Elsa Ekegren
her mother → Christina Kyle
her mother → Hans Claesson Kyle
her father → Claes Hansson Kyle
his father → Hans Claesson Kyle till Erstavik
his father → Klas Kyle
his father → Sigrid Ryning
his mother → Erik Ryning
her father → Peter Andersson Ryning
his father → Anders Gregersson Ryning
his father → Gregers Jonsson
his father → Jon Nielsen Rønning, av Ryninge
his father → Niels Rønning, av Ryninge
his father → Esa Jacobsdotter Hvide
his mother → Estrid Valdemarsdatter, prinsesse af Danmark
her mother → Sofia av Minsk
her mother → Rikissa av Polen, Drottning av Sverige
her mother → Boleslaus III "The Wry-mouthed"
her father → Książe Polski Władysław I Herman Piast, Duke
his father → Maria Dobroniega of Kiev
his mother → Vladimir the Great, Grand Prince of Kiev
her father → Sviatoslav Igorevich, Grand Prince of Kiev
his father → Igor of Kiev
his father → Rurik, Founder of the Rurikid Dynasty
his father

...Sorry - should be through the first wife of Vladimir I (Valdemar!) - not Rurik of course!

Новгородский Князь Рюрик был сыном вождя одного из карело-финских племен, которое жило на берегу озера Ильмень в словенском городе Русса (Старая Русса)! В то время географию знали плохо и любое большое озеро называли морем! Новгород тоже находиться на берегу озера Ильмень! К Швеции Рюрик отношения не имел!

The Novgorod Prince Rurik was the son of the leader of one of the Karelian-Finnish tribes, who lived on the shore of lake Ilmen in the Slovenian city of Russa (Old Russ)! At that time, the geography was known poorly and any large lake was called the sea! Novgorod is also located on the shore of lake Ilmen! To Sweden Rurik relations not had!

Dear Александр Евгеньевич Елисеев - Please give us the evidence for that claim.

I mean historic evidence, not just personal wishes.

Best regards
Amir

By the way Alexander!
You are my distant cousin (according to Geni):

"Александр Евгеньевич Елисеев is your 23rd cousin once removed."

Best regards
Amir

Потомки Новгородского Князя Рюрика по мужской линии имеют Y-DNA N1c1, что характерно для 30% мужчин городов: Новгород, Старая Русса и Старая Ладога! Летописец Нестор отрицает Шведское происхождение Рюрика! Внимательно читайте Повесть Временных лет!
Я являюсь потомком Новгородского Князя Рюрика одновременно по нескольким женским линиям и являюсь кровным родственником всем его потомкам!
Descendants of the Novgorod Prince Rurik on the male line have Y-DNA N1c1, which is characteristic of 30% of men cities: Novgorod, Old Russia and old Ladoga! Chronicler Nestor denies The Swedish origin of Rurik! Carefully read the Story of Time years!
I am a descendant of the Novgorod Prince Rurik simultaneously on several female lines and I am a blood relative to all his descendants!

Нестор: "Те варяги назывались русью, как другие называются шведы, а иные норманны и англы, а еще иные готландцы."
Nestor: "Those Vikings were called Rus, others are called Swedes, and others Normans and angles, and still others gotlanders."

Great for you Alexander, so am I, a number of lines. That does not make any difference.

There is a lot of support from serious Russian Historians that Rurik had a descent from Sweden. If he had Y-DNA N1c1 doesn´t make any difference. He could easily have been Finnish, Estonian or Vepsian third or fourth generation living in Sweden for a number of generations with a mixture of Grandmothers.

Rurikides intermarried with Swedish Brides and brought in Varangian warriors from Sweden for a long time. There are reasons for that. It is the same in Sweden from 1000 AD until around 1250 AD, alot of Pommeranian Slavic influx into the Royal houses and into big families. Everybody was mixing around the Baltic. By free will or by slavery.
Best regards

Rus were Sviones living in Roslagen, by the way.
All historians reading Nestor are in favour of Rus from Roslagen.

(Why did Vladimir the Great go to Sweden to get military support by the way? Not to Estonia, not to Finland, not to Kvänland).

Best regards
Amir

Среди вождей викингов (шведов) не могло быть финнов! Это исключено! Драккары викингов не могли подняться по реке Волхов выше Старой Ладоги! В Старой Ладоге товары перегружались на Новгородские ладьи, которые могли преодолеть пороги на реке Волхов! В Новгороде, В Старой Руссе и в Старой Ладоге есть захоронения викингов (шведов), но таких захоронений очень мало! О том, что Рюрик был варягом, но не викингом (шведом), Нестор написал в начале 12 века!
Among the leaders of the Vikings (Swedes) could not be Finns! It's impossible! The Viking dragons could not climb the Volkhov river above the Old Ladoga! In Staraya Ladoga goods were loaded on Novgorod rooks, which could overcome the rapids on the Volkhov river! In Novgorod, Staraya Russa in Staraya Ladoga is the burial of the Vikings (Swedes), but such graves very little! That Rurik was a Varangian, but not a Viking (a Swede), Nestor wrote in the early 12th century!

Я привел цитату из подлинного текста, написанного самим Нестором в 12 веке!
I have quoted from the original text written by Nestor himself in the 12th century!

I think we are all descended from Rurik (me=33) LOL. The N1 haplotype is a strong clue Rurik could have been a Finn. Also, when Vladimir the Great looked to Sweden for an army, remember, that would have included Finns. When the Swedish Empire was at its zenith, it was conjoined with Finland. Finns made fiercesome warriors (for example, the Hakkapelit).

There have been many viking finds (swords, brooches) in Finland, and the theory is the 'Swedish' vikings migrated eastwards to found the Rus via Novogorod. However, Vikings only go back to circa AD900.

Rurik could have been anything: Slavic, Germanic, Finnic or even Asiatic. Lost in the mists of antiquity, we may never know.

PS Amir - you are, apparently, my '15th cousin twice removed'.

PPS 'Александр Евгеньевич Елисеев is your 22nd cousin twice removed.' via the Grand Prince of Kiev.

Alexander Eliseev you cannot quote Nestor's original text because it is lost, even the earliest copies are lost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle#Two_manuscripts

So you have a copy of a copy (at best) with no existing contemporary corroborating documentary evidence. DNA cannot solve this mystery and cultural history can only give context, the genealogy of the early Rurikid is as clear as it is ever likely to get.

Dear Александр Евгеньевич Елисеев, why couldn´t the leader of a growing Viking tribe have been an original Finn? [paternal Finn 2-4 generations]? I know a number of Swedish Finns but NOW naturalised Swedes after a couple of generations, who are leading in different positions in Sweden today. Nothing is impossible.

The people around the Baltic are mixed with each other and regardless of their DNA some generations back, they represent their acquired nationalities and cultures.

I am sure you have alot of similar situations all around Russia. For example naturalised Tatars, who consider themselves as Russian-Russian (regardless of their DNA). I have even met Russians who are very religious Orthodox, who don´t speak Tatar language, who completely identify themselves with Russia in all aspects - yet are Tatars on their fathers side 4 or 5 generations back - and yet still don´t drink alcohol or eat pork (some minor remaining cultural heritage) - just as an example.

So sure Rurik could yet have been Finnish-Ugric by DNA but Svionic by culture.

Christina: It is unlikely that Vladimir the Great would have looked for "Finnish Vikings" in Sweden (or in Finland by the way, as we know that the there are no Viking burial mounds and no Runstone monuments [only one single actually] in Finland)

For the later history some 700-800 years later (during the zenith of the Swedish Empire), we all acknowledge the skills and greatness of the Finnish warriors as you mentioned. But that is another story.

Best regards
Amir