Margaret Countess of Richmond - Believe it or not, she may be for real

Here's the "official" Margaret, with her first two husbands: Margaret de Huntingdon, Princess of Scotland

That she married a third time is likely, considering that she was only about thirty-five when Humphrey (not Henry, sorry about that) de Bohun died. But *whom* she married is an open question. Continental records show that conde don Pedro Manrique de Lara, Vicomte de Narbonne (Hispano-French border lord, evidently) married *a* Margaret of the House of Dunkeld, but given that he was ten years younger than the Dowager Countess and that he married again while she was still alive, this is sometimes identified as a daughter Margaret by either her first or second husband.

There are records suggesting that she did in fact marry Sir William de Herteburne/Wessington, and that the mysterious "Marjory" whom David de Lindsay married was her daughter by this third marriage. This would completely clarify the ambiguities in Robert de Pinkeney's claim to the Scottish throne in 1290-92: it was made in the name of "Margareta", daughter of "Henri patre Regis Willi", alleged to be his great-grandmother (but if it was Margaret of Scotland, she was actually his great-great). A legitimate claim would put Pinkeney ahead of all those claiming via extramarital lines, but he still didn't have the political clout to beat out Balliol, Bruce and Comyn.

Cawley (MedLands) on this subject: The second possibility for a third marriage for Margaret with "the Berwickshire thegn" William FitzPatrick of Greenlaw, Westmoreland was proposed by Washington [Washington, G. S. H. L. (1964) The earliest Washingtons and their Anglo-Scottish connexions, cited in Evans (2003), p. 120.], and accepted by Hedley [Hedley, W. P. (1968) Northumberland Families, Vol. I, p. 237, cited in Evans (2003), p. 120.]. The Liber de S. Marie de Calchou (Kelso abbey) lists "Carta Willi fil Patric…in villa de Grenlaw" which records the donation by "M comitisse uxoris mee" to Kelso of land "in Grenelawe quem Lyolfus eq’cius tenuit"[Innes, C. (1846) Liber de S. Marie de Calchou, Vol. I, p. 58.], while the Pipe Roll of 1184 for Westmoreland records lands owned by "Countess Margaret"[Pipe Roll Society, Vol. XXXIII (1912), cited without a page number in Evans (2003), p. 120.]. Washington assigns three children to this marriage: "1. Walter de Washington, 2. Sir William de Washington, 3. Marjory who married firstly David de Lindsay (from which marriage descended Sir Robert de Pinkney, a competitor for the Scottish crown in 1291) and secondly Sir Malcolm FitzWaldeve alias de Ingoe".]
The "Evans" citation is to an essay in a collation: Evans, C. F. H. 'Margaret of Scotland, Duchess of Brittany', Adhémar de Panat, Comte d’and Ghellinck Vaernewyck, X. de (eds.) (1971) Mélanges offerts à Szabolcs de Vajay à l’occasion de son cinquantième anniversaire (Braga), pp. 187-91, in Edwards, S. (ed.) (2003) Complete Works of Charles Evans, Genealogy and related topics (Foundation for Medieval Genealogy) ("Evans (2003)").

So what do you all think? Merge, or leave as-is with jump-links back and forth?

Don Pedro Manrique is currently a cradle-robber, with his (second) wife, listed as Margaret de Bohun, a mere babe in arms - possibly explaining why there were no children of that marriage. Best-case scenario, if she was a Bohun, would have had her about twelve when married. One might think that a "Marguerite of Brittany", junior sister to Constance, would be a better fit, but the high nobility in the Middle Ages *were* rather prone to "wife husbandry" (catch 'em young and train 'em up to suit you).

Don't you think Margaret's parents should be added to the 2nd profile, then? And, both titles reflected on each profile to show they are the same person? I didn't connect them, previously. So, this means she is my GGM thru each of her 3 marriages (of interest only to me)

The more profiles added, the more hassle merging. The Curators have more than enough work to do as it is.

Who are the contenders for the Scots throne who are otherwise unexplained ?

Actually, everybody's got *some* kind of explanation. Pinkeney has hitherto been lumped among the "extramaritals" because most people have assumed that his great-grandmother Marjory, who married David de Lindsay and whose daughter married into the Pinkeneys, was an extramarital Dunkeld - but nobody has been able to make the chronology work with the actual claim (Margaret, daughter of Henry father of King William - which, probably *not* coincidentally, accurately describes the Dowager Countess).

If this reconstruction is correct, his claim was actually legitimate, he simply missed a "great" in the descriptors. It didn't matter, though, because his political backing was not up to the mark.

The five claimants through definitely extramarital lines were:

* William de Vesci, Baron de Vesci, son of William de Vesci, son of Margaret, illegitimate daughter of King William the Lion.

* William de Ros, 1st Baron de Ros, son of Robert de Ros, son of William de Ros of Hamlake, son of Isabella, natural daughter of King William the Lion.

* Nicholas de Soules, son of Ermengarde, daughter of Marjorie, natural daughter of King Alexander II.

* Patrick Galithly, son of Henry Galithly, natural son of King William the Lion.

* Roger de Mandeville, son of Agatha, daughter of Aufrica, daughter of William de Say, son of Aufrica, natural daughter of King William the Lion.

Interestingly, one noble had a very strong claim but *didn't* put it forward: Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl of Hereford, son of Humphrey, son of Humphrey, son of Humphrey, son of Henry, son of (here she is again) Margaret, daughter of Henry, Earl of Huntingdon, son of King David I. He thought it would be a "conflict of interest".

Post the profile for Pinckney? It’s feeling good but we have to try & break it.

I think this is the d00d: Robert de Pinkeney, Lord of Wedon-Pinkeney. At present he's only jump-linked to the secondary Margaret profile through a duplicate David de Lindsay profile:
Sir David de Lindsay, Lord of Luffness
Sir David de Lindsay, Lord of Luffness

The main David de Lindsay profile is married to a Marjory identified only as a "Crawford": Marjorie There is a problem with this, in that Crawford was apparently Davids own inheritance and "not" acquired through a wife.

The usual explanation of "Marjory" is that she was an extramarital daughter of one of the younger Huntingdons - Cawley thinks David Earl of Huntingdon would be a good fit chronologically, but this assumes an error in the proofs resented by Pinkeney.

Found a reprinted transcription here: https://archive.org/stream/documentsandrec00britgoog#page/n56/mode/2up. Cawley has been at his old chop-it-short game again, and it's actually a recitation of descent: Henry (de Huntingdon) > Margaret (named twice, hmmmm) > Alicia > Henry de Pinkeney > Robert de Pinkeney (the claimant).

As a matter of fact the Competitors' claims are cited starting on page vii, in apparent ascending order of strength of claim/political backing (Robert the Bruce gets the last word, but the decision went against him anyway). It's rather crabbed Latin and a transcription of who-knows-how-many generations of copies.

On the face of it it *appears* to read Henry > Margaret > Alicia > Henry de Pinkeney > Robert de Pinkeney, but chronologically it's very iffy. If the original version were Henry > Margaret > Margaret (Marjory) > Alicia > Henry P > Robert P, it would fit better and make more sense. This is a judgment call, though.

Cawley has about Marjorie

m MARJORY, illegitimate daughter of [DAVID of Scotland Earl of Huntingdon & his mistress ---] (-[after 1241]). "DD de Lyndes filius DD de Lyndes" donated revenue to Dunfermline abbey with "matri mee" by undated charter witnessed by "domina Margeria de Lyndeseya…"[930]. This document suggests that Marjory lived during the later years of the life of her son David, who died in 1241. The proofs relating to the claim to the Scottish throne in 1291 made by her great grandson "domini Roberti de Pinkeny" name "Margareta" as daughter of "Henr patre Regis Willi" but do not name her husband[931]. If the hypothesis about Marjory’s date of death is correct, this alleged parentage is impossible from a chronological point of view. Balfour Paul suggests that she may have the daughter of one of the sons of David Earl of Huntingdon who are named Henry[932]. However, this suggestion appears to place her birth somewhat late, considering that her son David was already married when he died in 1241. She is shown here as the possible daughter of David Earl of Huntingdon, but that is only a suggestion

So however he exactly descended, it is from David, and that descent should be reflected in Geni.

We have a project for the contenders, let’s see what that says.

This is an interesting find.

Oye this profile is looking massively confused

wife of Gille Crist

https://www.geni.com/projects/Competitors-for-the-Crown-of-Scotland...

Notes are

Robert de Pinkeney, son of Alicia, daughter of Marjorie, an alleged natural daughter of Henry, Earl of Huntingdon, son of King David I.

https://books.google.com/books?id=eUHHAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA28&ots...

Is this Marjory > Alice de Lindsay > (grandson) Pinckney

An extra generation?

I don't think "Lives of the Lindsays" (publication date 1849) really clarifies the situation by much other than to confirm that Crawford was a Lindsay possession from at least the days of David's father William - which means that "Marjory", whoever she was, was not a Crawford.

Dude has one thing bass-ackward: Eleanor de Limesey was not *Alicia's* mother, she was *David's*.

Cawley: [William de Lindsay] m secondly ELEANOR de Limesey, daughter of GERARD de Limesey & his wife Amice de Bidun (-before 1223). Her parentage and marriage are indicated by a document dated [29 Oct] 1223 which records a claim against "Hugh de Hoddingesele and Basilia his wife...along with David de Lindesi” relating to charters of “Alan de Lymesia and Gerard his son father of said Basilia and grandfather of said David”[891].

As of this date Cawley has not gotten around to cross-comparing the validity of the Wessington claim with the "traditional" ancestry of Marjory de Lindsay.

No matter how you look at it, there is something not quite right about the Pinkeney claim as written down. It is quite explicit that the claim is made through Alicia (nee de Lindsay, sister of David junior) to Margaret, daughter of Henry of Huntingdon (father of William the Lion). Henry's only *legitimate* daughter Margaret was the Dowager Countess of Richmond and Hereford (whom we have been discussing), and there is *clearly* a generation missing somewhere if we try to fit *her* in. Thus the presumption of a younger, natural daughter Marjory (but it's still a severe stretch if she's *Henry's* daughter).

There isn't much doubt that David de Lindsay senior *did* marry a Marjory and she *was* the mother of at least David junior, Gerard, and Alicia: "DD de Lyndes filius DD de Lyndes" donated revenue to Dunfermline abbey with "matri mee" by undated charter witnessed by "domina Margeria de Lyndeseya…" (Cawley citing the cartulary of Dunfermline) http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY%20UNTITLED.htm#...
(That whole line appears to have met with disaster, probably in connection with the Scottish succession wars - only one of the four sons of David and Marjory left even one child (Walters, son of Walter) and he doesn't seem to have left any .)

Well. The obvious place for an interpolation is between Margaret and Alicia, and it's rather curious that Margaret's name is repeated at exactly that place. Was the original wording "ex qua, Margareta ex qua Alicia"? And did some copyist assume that was an unnecessary/erroneous repetition and delete the second "ex qua"?

That, we may never know. But given the vagaries of copyists over the centuries, it is a possibility worth considering.

Any action to take on parents of wife of Gille Crist

Private User writes:

I'm confused as to why Marjorie of Huntingdon is a master profile when it can't be substantiated who her parents are, (or her identity for that matter)? It says they likely are NOT Henry and Ada of Scotland and yet if you click on her parents, that's exactly where it takes you. AND theirs is a master profile too which means there are records to prove it. I don't want to go further back until Marjorie's parents' identity is confirmed. Any help here? Thanks.

Actually, Mastering has often been done to avoid mash-merging with wrong profiles. In this case we don't want her mashed up with any version of Margaret, Countess of Richmond!

She's even married to the wrong Lindsay - husband should be David (sr.), not John, and having a daughter when she was 58 years old is stretching it pretty hard.

Can you find a Geni profile for the correct Lindsay husband?

Actually I think "Marjorie of Huntingdon" is {Fictional}. You could stick her onto this one, though: Sir David de Lindsay, Lord of Luffness

For the present I'd prefer to keep the "Washington" line clear of the mess.

Made a new profile

wife of Gille Crist