Aboazar Lovesendes, senhor da Maia - Aboazar Lovesendes: posted new document in Portuguese and I translated file to English: I do not like that his fatherly path was removed.

Sharon Lee Doubell, ;-) Belo!

Justin, I know! Sometimes I talk a little joking!

Gertrudes is my Lucy!
I did not expect you to know about Gertrudes! I have searched locally and in all FamilySearch records. I found several records of children, censuses, royal assignments for her husband, but it seems that she appears only as a godmother at weddings and baptized.

I'm always researching. I am in favor of having data sources validating inputs. I will read the PDFs provided by Dr. Anwar Michael Ibrahim and other texts that I have achieved, so as not to be totally clueless.

I downloaded those articles from academia.edu. Look for (Mulçumanos, Ibérica) or (Muslims, Iberian)

This is just to get started!

https://www.academia.edu/12707518/The_Genetic_Legacy_of_Religious_D...

https://www.academia.edu/22554772/CONVIVENCIA_AND_RECONQUISTA_A_HIS...

https://www.academia.edu/30226289/Musa_Ibn_Nusayr_670-716_e_a_Const...

https://www.academia.edu/35345693/_The_Northeast_Iberian_Peninsula_...

This researcher has expertise in Medieval History of Portugal and Spain:
https://lisboa.academia.edu/AnaMariaSARodrigues

My late mother was furious when she got on Geni one day and found that her Lake family line went back to Sir Lancelot. She said basically what kind of genealogy site allows member family trees to add fictional people?!

There are two types of issues -- fictional people and connections that are based on stories but have no evidence for them or worse have counter evidence.

For many eras and regions, we simply have no sources, certainly not for many eras before 1600 and even for the American South or Jewish records in Eastern Europe we have sketchy records prior to the nineteenth century.

Justin I just want to put it out here:

You say my references are Junk, yet, many times I get my information studying the works of:
Jaime de Salazar and Acha
http://www.rah.es/jaime-salazar-acha-2/

Reilly, Bernard F
https://www.encyclopedia.com/arts/culture-magazines/reilly-bernard-f

Both experts in Medieval Spanish History

I used both or their works to support the Zaida / Isabella Queen to Alfonso VI, ideas.

Nice, but you're still not citing specific works by them that examine specific issues and provide their analysis of the evidence.

Saying that "many times I get my information studying the works of" is not a strong endorsement of the theories you're trying to defend.

It's in the nature of historical analysis that many historians who specialize in a particular period are very good at that period but still have never examined particular questions.

What I'm asking you to do is something very simple but you seem to be evading it.

"what kind of genealogy site allows member family trees to add fictional people?!"

"Nice, but you're still not citing specific works by them that examine specific issues and provide their analysis of the evidence"

Justin I quoted their works to specific months ago :(

remember this:

https://media.geni.com/p13/16/94/77/df/53444847570ed5ae/king_alfonz...

A citation. Thanks. If you've posted this before, I haven't seen it.

Nevertheless, this is still just a generalist account. It gives Reilly's conclusions but does not examine the underlying issues.

The identity of Isabel is one piece of the debate. Experts disagree about whether there was one Isabel or two. The surviving evidence is not clear. I think experts all agree she cannot have been French, as her gravestone says. Geni takes the conservative approach by separating the two Isabels, so we don't jump to conclusions in an area where experts disagree.

There is also the problem of which of Alfonso's wives was mother of which children. The dating is a bit tricky. If there was only one Isabel then she was mother of Sancho, Elvira, and Sancha. But if there were two Isabels then Zaida's only confirmed child was Sancho, the heir. But it looks like the other Isabel could have been mother of Elvira and Sancha. Again, Geni takes a conservative approach rather than wandering into speculation.

And there is the problem that Zaida's ancestry is speculative. She was a daughter or perhaps daughter-in-law of al-Mutamid of Seville, There is a theory she might have also been his niece but there's no direct evidence. .

The whole question is considerably more complicated than you want to make it. I suggest reading some of the controversy rather than just advocating one theory.

There are several meaty discussions at soc.genealogy.medieval, including this one:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/z...

And Charles Cawley at MedLands cites primary sources, gives an overview of the problems, and comes to a different conclusion:

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CASTILE.htm#AlfonsoVIdied1109B

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MOORISH%20SPAIN.htm#AbuNasirdied1090

With DNA tests costs much to make specific linages. I for the same, I don't make me the test. But one contact from United States, who has Costa Rican family, also has the sames ancestors Portugueses and Spanishes and he said me that is possitive the Arabian origin but he doesn't knew the linage and I said him. Also Rendulfo De Soleima was Portuguese of Arabic origin, equalment Aixa (Aisha) Marinha Uzbertiz, borned in Morocco. But of their two, do not is possible to know the linage.

Thank you Sandro Márcio but say me that Lucía Pilla es Brazilian. Yeah, she cut me my tree when myself can't cut it.

It seems that only in academia.edu, I will have much material available :-)

3 papers on Academia mention the phrase "Ibericos mulçumanos" in the full text of the paper.

97 papers on Academia mention the phrase "iberic muslims" in the full text of the paper.

8.482 papers on Academia mention the phrase "Muslims Iberian" in the full text of the paper.

4.670 papers on Academia mention the phrase "Descendência Árabe na península ibérica" in the full text of the paper.

And....

3.658.843 papers on Academia mention the phrase "The Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula" in the full text of the paper.

Here is a nice summary and discussion about some of the THEORIES about Muslim/Christian descents in Early-Medieval Spain.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/A...

None of them have been proved and most of them have substantial defects.

The problem of Aboazar's ancestry is complicated. I'm searching for an easy way to explain it. In the meantime, here is an SGM discussion that touches on the main points.

History of the house of maia in Portugal
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medi...

Then there is this one:

New theory on the Muslim descent of the Maia
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/m...

Id you don't have time to read these long discussions, here is the relevant summary:

"As to the actual parentage of Alboazar Lovesendes, what we actually know about his parentage is one thing and one thing only - that his father was named Lovesendo. Full stop. We know this because of the nature of patronymic usage at the time. Lovesendes means, literally, son of Lovesendo. Everything else is guesswork, based on wishful thinking or unjustified attempts to 'fix' a legend from centuries later that incorrectly makes him son of a king."

Lovesendo Ramires had that be the father because is the unique in these epoque. Documentally do not exists other Lovesendo, Lord of Maia, Portugal.

That is one of the arguments but it doesn't work. We don't know enough about this period to make that kind of leap.

See the note at the bottom of this project.

Mohammadan Descents in Medieval Spain
https://www.geni.com/projects/Mohammadan-Descents-in-Medieval-Spain...

I am not agree with the curators, whose say that not are descendants of Muhammad.

I would love for José David Mora Benavides to refute the https://www.geni.com/projects/Mohammadan-Descents-in-Medieval-Spain... project write-up.

Come on.

José David Mora Benavides whether you agree is not relevant.

Do you have verifiable evidence that contradicts what is written in the project?

Private family trees can contain as many theories and guesses as you like but when working on a shared tree we are all beholden to provide evidence for or against a fact.

It's right known that muslim women of Arabic origin married with catholic and caucasic men.

It would be surprising, given the population sizes, If that did not happen.
Which woman married which man?

Geni is a genealogical site not a history lesson, so unless there is specific information about specific people the fact that it must of happened is not being disputed. It is the desire to show a relationship for a specific couple as a fact when it has no quality evidence that is the issue.

Agreed. Names, dates, documents. As they say, "Genealogy without documentation is mythology."

I read a piece a few weeks ago that said the marriage of Muslim women to Christian men in medieval Spain was probably far less common than we might think.

According to this piece, there are only two (or was it three?) documented cases in this period. All of them caused a great scandal and became legal precedents that a Muslim was not allowed to give his daughter in marriage to a Christian man.

As I read, I had three thoughts:

First, under the right circumstances it seems that a particular instance might not have been quite so scandalous. Or, at least, kings sometimes get away with things that would be a scandal if someone else did them.

Second, in the case of Dª. Zaida Isabel, reina de León, she seems to have been a refugee at the court of Alfonso VI. (Not a gift, as sometimes claimed.) Her father and husband were dead. So, who was there to give her to Alfonso? It seems likely this situation would not come under the ban on Muslims giving their daughters to Christians.

And third, it would be worth fact-checking the article before relying on it.

I remember reading that Alfonzo IV really wanted to take over Toledo. (Which he later did)

Because of this want to conquer this region there was a light alliance between him and the Rulers of Seville. I have also read one view that Zaida was not a concubine, but, a valued gift which Alfonzo Cherished.

Accepted status would not reach her or her son Sancho unless she converted to Christianity. And , a name like Zaida = Sayyida would not ever be accepted because it is a Muslim name Annotating the line of Muhammad (PBUH).

When it come to Muslim women marrying Christian men , you must not think in the terms of agreed sided marriage, but rather, captured slaves, or Crypto Conversion for safety.

If she was refugee at the court of Alfonso VI, I believe this was also because of a semi alliance between her father or uncle and Alfonso VI.

> If she was refugee at the court of Alfonso VI, I believe this was also because of a semi alliance between her father or uncle and Alfonso VI.

Of course. Our information comes from late sources that contradict one another but it doesn't take too much to think through the problems here.

When a group of radical Islamists led by Yusuf ibn Tasufin besieged Córdoba, Zaida was sent to the castle at Almodovar del Rio for safety. Her husband remained in the city and was killed in the fighting. Zaida went to her father-in-law in Seville. The Almoravides invested Seville in June and took it in September. Sometime in that period Zaida went to the court of Alfonso VI. Almost certainly because he was her father-in-law's ally. Then she became Alfonso's mistress, and (probably) later his wife.

I don't see any gift here, except circumstances. Her husband was dead. Her father-in-law wasn't there, and anyway he wasn't in a political position to do anything either way.

The alliance was good for both sides. If Alphonso wanted the marriage, no one could stop him. If he didn't want it, it wouldn't have been hard for Zaida or her father-in-law to talk him into it.

How someone reads this tells us more about their own biases than about the story itself.

Regarding the name Zaida.

I would be more cautious about drawing generalizations here.

The experts disagree sharply about whether Zaida represents the honorific "Sayyida" or the given names "Sayyida" or "Saida".

There's no evidence either way, but on the whole it seems more likely in her case it was a given name.

But if it was an honorific in her case (or if it was both an honorific and a given name), it doesn't tell us the details of her ancestry.

I am not sure what your intention is, or, what drives you to destroy all our Spanish lines , but, your words and sided push are apparent.

You are not open to finding out the possibilities of our lines to the Prophet Muhammad PBUH, but, rather drive to crush them all.

I hope you are enjoying yourself.

May your heart be enlightened. ((AMEN))

Anwar, I fell in love with this period and these lines in my History of Medieval Spain class at University of Utah. My goal is to shine a light on areas that are dark from centuries of ignorance and old fairy tales. No one looks for the Truth if they think they've already found it.

:)

Thanks Justin for the research you're putting in place here.