The Real McMoytoy -- Standing-Up!

I can’t comment on your Eurioean ancestry since I know nothing about European royalty. I do know however that
1) Thomas Passmore Carpenter” is a complete Internet myth, debunked many times;
2) the supposed “Amatoya Moytoy” born in 1640 is another Internet myth. There is no record of anyone named “Moytoy” until 1730.
3) “Granny Hopper” was a real person, actual name and parents completely unknown. She had three documented children, Alexander, Katy, and Lewis. Caty married John “Jack” Ward, white son of Bryant Ward. Alexander is believed to have married two sisters named Wilson. Lewis has no known descendants.
4) the Cherokee were matrilineal. There were no ‘family’ names. Paternal descendancy began only with the children of white traders who began living with the Cherokee in the late 1720’s. Clan relationshiips and village connections were all that mattered.

There is nothing in the record to suggest that the settlers who were attacked were anything other than European.

The idea that Cherokee who remained after Removal ‘hid out’ is another myth. About 1/4 of the 16,000 Cherokee identified in 1835 are believed to have stayed in the East. Most stayed right where they were, on their land in Georgia, Tennessee, and North Carolina, but families continued to move West (under Treaty provisions) for the next 60 years.

In accord with the treaties, those who remained became U.S. citizens; many, if not most, are found on the 1850 U.S. census (frequently listed as white). Mullay identified over 1500 Cherokee living in North Carolina in 1848. When the U.S. Congress authorized a payment in 1850 to those who remained, Siler identified about 1700 in 1851. Many complained they had been overlooked, and when the actual payments were made by Chapman over 2100 individuals were identified.

Your DNA may connect you to a woman named Rachel Chambers, but there is nothing to connect Rachel to any Cherokee.

Clara Ward’s family genealogy, as reproduced in Muriel Wright’s book says about Granny Hopper (p 86):

“GENEALOGY OF THE WARD FAMILY OF THE CHEROKEE NATION
“Granny” Hopper, a fullblood Cherokee woamn, married ___________ McDaniel, a Scotchman
THEIR CHILDREN:
Alexander McDaniel
Lewis McDaniel
Catherine (“Katie”) McDaniel

GENERATION NUMBER 1
#1 John (Jack) Ward from Ireland married Catherine McDaniel”

and then lists their children. No dates, no information Granny Hopper except her name, the fact that she was Cherokee, and the last name of her husband. I don’t see where you descend from one of these people, but perhaps I’ve missed it.

That is just information people entered on family trees. There are no Cherokee marriage records prior to the Revolutionary War. The Cherokee didn’t have marriages in the European sense. They had partners and relationships which lasted only as long as both people were happy with them. Some men had plural wives, women often had children by multiple men. Few, if any, Cherokee had Christian marriages before the missionaries arrived about 1800.

No one is even certain what the man’s first name was. This is all speculation. There was a David McDaniel on a list of traders with the Cherokee. I believe the only thing we actually, factually, know about Mr. McDaniel is his surname because that’s what his children used.

The Cheokee James Dougherty was the son of trader Cornelius Dougherty and his Cherokee wife, James was born in the Cherokee Nation probably about 1750. They didn’t live in Pennsylvania.

There is only one family named Chambers on the 1835 census and they lived in Alabama.

Timothy, you are pushing DNA far beyond what it can really prove.

DNA can't show descent from specific people who have not themselves been tested. It can only show there is some level of relationship (depending on the amount of DNA in common). Even then, it can't confirm a specific relationship except when it is very close.

DNA can be used to support the evidence of a paper trail, but if the paper trail is weak, then the DNA evidence becomes much less useful.

Timothy, other messages from you have heavily relied on DNA to make your case so I'm hoping to head off that argument before you start in on it here.

If we do genealogy long enough, all of us learn at some point that our supposed ancestors didn't exist or weren't who we thought they were.

Instead of these long pages of messages, you would be better served by tackling each piece of the puzzle individually. Start your discussions from specific profiles, and offer your sources for identification and relationships.

The way you're doing it now effectively hides the discussion from the people most likely to be offer feedback, and it ensures that your issues are less likely to be resolved.

Thanks Pam, for tackling this huge task of correcting the NA "dreamer" tree. As we have discussed before, and I am as guilty as many of it, it is a tough decision to accept that 99% of the stories that many of us of Appalachian heritage heard as children about our Indian blood are false. We are fortunate to have scholars such as yourself and Kathryn along with DNA experts such as Justin and others to keep us "dreamers" on track. We all have a part of us that wants to believe the Princess stories that as children we were enthralled with. But as they say, the truth will set you free. Admit it or not, the documented truth is what we should all want for now.

Yes, we all agree that there are undocumented members of Cherokee, Shawnee, Chickasaw, Choctaw and innumerable other tribes that have been forgotten with the ravages and abuse of time and "progress". And yes, oral tradition should and eventually will on Geni have a place to be "documented" as such.

We all just need to be patient and wait for Geni techs to figure out how and where to allow the "Oral Tradition" stories to be on here. They haven't forgotten those "forgotten" warriors and their families of our heritage. Patience is a virtue we all struggle with. For now we just need to apply that patience and document what we can prove, the forgotten ones will have their time, it is coming....

Is THIS the Cornelius Dougherty you are talking about? Is THIS where James Dougherty belongs? ......

Cornelius Dougherty

OR....is THIS......

Cornelius Dougherty, Cherokee Trader

It's pretty clear there were two different men named Cornelius Doherty/Dougherty, one born about 1670-1680, the other in the early 1700's. Whether they were father and son, or whether this is simply a coincidence of names is unknown. A man named Cornelius Dougherty (lots of varied spellings) was one of the earliest traders with the Cherokee, arriving in the first decade of the 1700's along with Robert Bunning and Eleazar Wiggan. He was still trading in 1725 when George Chicken was sent by the colonial government to investigate the Cherokee trade. He is not mentioned by Herbert, who visited in 1728, or Cuming in 1730. A man named Cornelius Dougherty appears on a list of licensed Cherokee traders 1750-54. He provided food for the besieged at Fort Loudon in 1760. Jennie Dougherty was probably born about 1745-1750. She was part of a Cherokee delegation that visited Philadelphia in 1792. James' birth is estimated at 1750. It appears that the second Cornelius was the father of Jennie and James Dougherty. It seems unlikely that a man of 70-80 would be still actively trading and fathering children in the 1750's and would live to be over 100, dying in 1779.

I knew the 1700 one made more sense. Ok Erica and Pam.....I would think these 2 Cornelius are connected.....I'm not a bettin' person, but I would lay money on it. Only thing is, the 1700 one says was born in Ireland. What proof do we have of that. I have actually found good proof that the elder Cornelius Dougherty was really named "Alexander Cornelius Dougherty". Anyways, can we get James and Jennie onto the 2nd Cornelius tree?

Page 25:
https://books.google.com/books?id=sO8MCP8ImYEC&lpg=PA25&ots...

Page 29:
https://books.google.com/books?id=-vEXEPUJK4EC&lpg=PA29&ots...

Page 104:
https://books.google.com/books?id=qpvJP7WAv1EC&lpg=PA104&ot...

Page 58:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ul0SCwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA58&ots...

Page24:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ei0TAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA24&ots...

Mentioned in the following...

http://cherokeeregistry.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=a...

I could show a whole lot more...but they are PDF.....

Timothy, you just need to accept that we know very little about these early people. We don’t know where or when they were born, and sometimes we don’t know where or when they died. We don’t connect them without some kind of documentation (e.g. the two Cornelius’). We need to be especially careful about people with the same name. There is probably enough historical information to connect Jennie and James Dougherty as children of the 1700 Cornelius, but it’s not possible to go any farther back. .

About half ways down the page, it tells you Cornelius Dougherty was the son of Alexander.....

https://dnaconsultants.com/anomalous-dna-in-the-cherokee-the-dna-ch...

And as you said a few postings earlier Lloyd.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGTKN0DaxzQ

Diana,
very interesting the first link of course. Let the controversy begin, or continue. Intersting also as I am researching a Chickasaw family tree I suspect may have some Cherokee but no real proof yet of Hawkins family connect to Owens. Oklahoma, Texas areas.

Seems that these theories keep up about tribal origins and often are refuted or disagreed upon. There seems be some early influence of Mayans on some of the South Eastern tribes.

Pre-contact of colonies and migrations of tribes is a fun subject.
Some work was done on Elvis' tree and a few years later all internet refernces and sites seemed to be removed.

The DNA Consultants material is useless. They are one of many groups trying to prove the Cherokee are somehow a lost tribe of Israel. Their “Cherokee” DNA study consisted of people who claimed to have a Cherokee ancestor, not documented Cherokee or Cherokee descendants. Complete fiction.

Many reputable genealogists have traced Elvis’ ancestors. He had no Cherokee connection.

I was thinking. How can we evaluate the work of compilers to more easily determine for ourselves their likely accuracy ? Or is there no getting around the work of examining and compiling primary sources ourselves, and then working with peers for interpretation and review ?

You can't evaluate the work of other compilers until they connect to the world tree -- where it's pretty much standard for master profiles that cannot be changed -- if anyone is familiar with Microsoft Active Directory, you have a Forest, an OU (Organizational Units) inside that -- you can setup a master profile as a OU then put another OU inside of it as and use it as a container where individual users can modify their files -- that way errors won't propagate into the entire Forest or World Tree...

That way even if the compiler or users delete their subordinate files, it won't bother the MP's. I'd make MP's on EVERY historical profile of significance... I know... That is a job.

But if you want data / information accuracy and have ACL - access control lists as MP's then it's the best protocol to use...

I guess everyone who has a historically significant family should have curators all up and down their lines setting up MP's all over the place -- especially in large families...

Oh, Tip of my hat to my second-cousins Pam and Kathryn -- five times removed...:) Welcome to my CRAZY family world lol. J/k

I tried looking for McDaniel in some old newspapers -- but all I could see was DANIEL and not sure who or whom they were -- the print was so bad that I couldn't read it even blown up...

All I've found that gives any clue is:

This document here showing DAVID MCDANIEL -- but a common misspelling I've been seeing is they spelled the last-name as: Mcdaniel.

Don't know how much significance that might be...

http://tngenweb.org/tnfirst/traders.html

But to keep things on the level, I adjusted my Ancestry.com trees to the correct names and deleted any references to MOYTOY or GRASSHOPPER -- it's what's showing on the MP on the World Tree that I try to match as close as possible.

I know this is off-topic, but on the main page of your profile does anyone show 121 million or so people you're related to? Or 10,000 Blood Relatives??? I don't know how to read that???

I'm going to update my MY HERITAGE and FTDNA and GEDMATCH GED files accordingly...

So, you have me convinced, even if I did lose my crown LOL. J/k. But the mystery of the G2 and J2 Haplogroup is just making me be Sherlock Holmes... I have to find out where those came from...

On my genetic analysis from PROMETHEASE under the topic: "Native American," it shows this:

rs2814778(A;A)
Duffy-positive This genotype is associated with European populations and southwestern Native American populations; see discussion and citations at rs2814778.
rs2814778 is within the DARC gene, which encodes the Duffy blood group antigen. This SNP shows an almost perfectly fixed difference in frequency between Europeans and those with African ancestry. (One exception appears to be a certain population of Czech gypsies, and certain non- Ashkenazi Jewish populations.) Additionally the Namibian San samples of the CEPH-HGDP are, uncharacteristically for Africans, all AA homozygotes for this SNP. The rs2814778 (G) allele is associated with African populations, while rs2814778 (A) is associated with European populations and southwestern Native American populations. rs2814778(G;G) protect against Plasmodium vivax malaria and predicts of white blood cell and neutrophil count 23andMe blog discussion Malaria Resistance (Duffy Antigen)
more info