Origins of "cherokee in the family" stories

Started by Erica Howton on Sunday, April 1, 2018
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Lloyd Alfred Doss, Jr, I am documented....I am a direct descendant from the Old Cherokee family of the Adair's.......

Linda, Please don't be defensive, I was just offering to help build your Geni tree, I didn't ask about your documentation. I saw where the Adair lineage ties into your tree earlier today. I was working in that area and have tied the Ballard line to the Ramage and into the Adair on your tree if you care to look.

There are Cherokee Ballards and Cherokee Adairs, but I don't think they intersect anywhere. The Ballards descend from a white man, Samuel Ballard, who married Cherokee Diana Otterlifter. The Cherokee Adairs descend from John who married a Cherokee woman named Nancy/Ga-ho-ga Foster, and his brother Edward, who married a Cherokee woman named Elizabeth/Betsy Scott.

Question. Have any of you found DNA proof?

My paternal grandmother always said her mother was (at least part) Cherokee.
Which is quite close, but no DNA has proven this.

Lloyd Alfred Doss, JR.

yes , you are correct the Adairs, Ballards, Ramages and Colemans all inter connect...I don't mean to be defensive, I apologize....I have two Cousins that are a Professional genealogist and one specializes in Cherokee Lineage, it has taken me over 25 years of me researching, I had an Aunt that knew the exact lineage, I never took the time to write any of it down, which was a mistake, now all my family is with the Creator...then I met my cousins , and boom boom boom he started putting it all in place....

Kathryn Forbes, you are correct on this....these are my lines , they do interconnect and it goes down into the Ramages and Colemans, McMurry, so forth...I have Gunters, Smiths, Waties, from Stand Watie....There are a lot of Elizabeths in my line.....Edward Adair married Elizabeth Scott Hicks who was Wolf Clan, she was 1/2 Cherokee.....if you notice, the blood line does extend down through these lines, it will thin ,but not die out , and pick up again......Cherokee lineage is the hardest to work through because many Cherokee claimed to be white before the removal in hopes of keeping their homes and many took on Christian names,... but also their were those that went to Indian Territory before the removal and Adairs is one name you will find that did, I was hoping to build my tree on here to help others......I have not been to Oklahoma since 2013..

I have Ballard cousins and Adair cousins, all Cherokee, but I’m not aware of any Cherokee Ballards who married Cherokee Adairs.

I enjoyed reading this post and felt inspired to give my input on the LDS records; especially if your possible native ancestor was baptized and joined the Latter Day Saints becoming a member of the church.
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First, we must understand the history of the Mormon Church and the Native peoples. The Mormons were the first of the newcomers to claim the native people as Laminates; a cursed group whose skin was made dark. A cursed group from the Children of Israel making them brethren if they returned to the path of G-D. In fact, with belief that by intermarrying with them they would become," white and delightsome people."
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(1840), 2 Nephi 30:6 has read:

“…their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people.”

2 Nephi 5:21 still says:

“And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, and they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”

Third Nephi 2:12-15 continues to teach that dark-skinned Lamanites who converted unto the Lord had their curse “taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites.”

At the October 1960 LDS Church Conference, Spencer Kimball utilized 2 Nephi 30:6 when he stated how the Indians “are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.” He said, “The [Indian] children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation” (Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-3).

During the same message Kimball referred to a 16-year-old Indian girl who was both LDS and “several shades lighter than her parents…” He went on to say, “These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.”
http://www.mrm.org/white-and-delightsome
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This meaning, at one point, many Mormons were marrying natives. Especially, during the time when having multiple wives was permitted in the church. The United States new government feared this unity between the two groups and the Natives and Mormons were equally persecuted. Thus, causing early migration of both Mormons and Natives as they searched for a new region with less hostility and place to claim as their own.
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QUESTIONS:
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How might this effect the Mormon records?

Where are all the records of these Native and Mormon marriages?

Have you heard of paper genocide?
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Paper Genocide: The Historical Suppression of Native American Indian Heritage on Gov. Record
https://youtu.be/vU0_1q25nxM

The U.S. government was guilty of this, and unfortunately, so is the LDS Mormon church.

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Once US census records started labeling people according to their “so called” color, the Mormon church, also participated in paper genocide; due to their religious beliefs and doctrine, as well as, the fear already instilled in them by the hostility of past experiences with The United States Government because of the alliance with the natives.

Because of the above reasons the LDS Church, most definitely, would have listed “MOST” if not “ALL” of their members as “White”.

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I find this problem with several of my trees and lines as my family joined the church from the beginning and migrated very early with the Mormons.

Example: My Brown Family line.

Most Mormons know the name James Stephens Brown.

He was a great man with dedication to the church. He was a friend to the Natives knowing many languages as a interpreter. The church never mentions the notion that he may descend from a mixed colonial line. Even my own family oral tradition only mentions him to be a Portigee-Scott. Mormon records most likely list him as, “White”.
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But, a court record found by a Brown family relative (James Brown Klein) paints a completely different story about my Brown family line.

In fact, in a Stillwell court case against my family witnesses claimed:
https://media.geni.com/p13/00/4b/6b/d8/534448475914bafc/stillwellco...

“it appears that William BROWN, / father of James, / and the wife of William were colored people, that they had the following children Wm. BROWN, James BROWN, Charity BROWN, Betty BROWN, Hannah BROWN, Pepper(?) [Patsy or Margaret] BROWN, Susanna BROWN, & Constant BROWN; the latter of whom is said to dead, but which of the others are dead it is not known, but all of them, or most of them are believed still to be living, or to have had children who are living, but who live as they are informed in distant parts of the United States, but where is unknown to any persons from whom information has been obtained; but all of whom are colored persons, & from their appearance & complexion, afforded evidence to everybody, that they were of mixed blood; and that Pepper(?) ROBERTS, the mother of their intestate, was known to be a woman of fair complexion & never suspected by her neighbors in Johnson County to be mixed blood.

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Small History:

My Brown family were very early North Carolina Natives with land plots in old Rowan County before many settlers arrived.
One reason my Brown family relatives left North Carolina with the Mormons was that their homes had been burnt down on two separate occasions. We know this was a tactic used many times to remove natives from their property and areas of inhabitation.

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In Conclusion, when we research our ancestors records, we must understand that the census records and description of color was full of: confusion, change, alteration, and paper genocide. For many natives assimilation into the new “White America” was a way of safety, a way of being considered a equal, and being accepted by the new majority group reshaping what they thought ethnicity was. A true paper genocide did take place erasing the past of many of our colonial / native roots. The Mormon LDS church as mentioned above is a part of this “Paper Genocide” literally making people white again on paper records, due to religious beliefs, and who the native people were and would become joining the church. There must have been many mixed marriages to fulfill this prophecy idea. But, where has the records of all these mixed marriages gone? The Mormon Church also, was pressing hard to become a state reporting to the government census. Because of the hostility between the US government and the Mormons becoming united with the Native peoples, it becomes common sense they would report their members as “WHITE” civilized brethren. The unfortunate problems to these motives are we lose who we are as modern day Americans. You are veiled to your native roots which vibrate within your DNA and make you who you really are. The fact that many of us are mixed blood with colonial roots is strong and valid. Just because a census record reports your ancestor a particular way on census records, it should not be considered solid fact. As shown with one example of my Brown Family line, other records might show differently. When it comes to the records of the Mormon Church, if they were baptized members of the church, please believe they were indeed made white again. Paper Genocide is real and effects many of us today.

With care, Dr. Anwar M. Ibrahim

I do not believe the percentages to be precisely accurate some Native DNA may not show based on database, distance of time from native ancestor, and method of testing. I do believe in the future DNA tests and overlapping segments will be used to help verify tribal claims.

for a detailed copy of this in PDF format, maps, and pictures can be found here.

https://media.geni.com/p13/16/06/a5/e3/5344484938398a13/paper_genoc...

Outstanding comment! Honestly, I never considered what you just stated concerning the LDS church and their attempts at "killing" the NA trail. And, call it coincidence or divine intervention, your comment hits spot on with my lineage as to where my "supposed" NA lineage lies (call it my "dead end"). My 3rd great grandmother, Margaret "Peggy" Gross (Daniel) is my unconnected "dead end" with no solid documentation as to her origins.
Margaret "Peggy" Gross

My great grandmother Leona Brewer (Gross) always told the stories of her grandmother's NA heritage directly to me as a child, and guess what, she, her parents and all of her siblings were Mormon. Her son, Forest Gerald Brewer, my grandfather was all but disowned when he decided to leave the LDS and join the Baptist faith. Forest Gerald Brewer

As I said, could just be coincidence, or perhaps, someone greater that all of us wants the truth to be known, to allow those great Warriors and Princess' to rest in peace and for their ancestors to be proud of their true heritage.

Don't get me wrong, I am a solid researcher (in my limited genealogy-educational background) and believer in what members such as Kathyrn are doing for the Cherokee lineage. I want these people to be remembered, but the documentation is all we can depend on, otherwise it is as bogus as the Don Greene volumes that I had faith in just a few years ago. After I discovered the heresy he was pushing, I decided to disconnect my Peggy Daniel and to leave her in limbo. I do believe in oral tradition, the stories are just too prolific from so many sources to not have some validity but without "paper" to back them up, they are just that, "stories told to a child" .

So to sum this up, as I said earlier in this discussion, they just wanted to have a life, to raise their children, to love, be loved and "accepted" even if it meant being "white" and giving up their heritage. It is a sad fact that many NA will never be "known" to us from a fact based standpoint and perhaps that is how they wanted it to be. May they rest in peace. Thank you again Anwar for the enlightening comment.

Thank you for this information Private User
I stand by my belief that many NA families claimed white and lost their heritage inorder to assimilate. My family was NA and intermarried with whites. In several census records they claimed white but were actually mixed blood white and NA.

I have done some searching on my Brown cousins who were Choctaw, Chickasaw and White intermarried. Maybe a lead for your Brown line.

Lou Brown

This family was in OK and Texas so may not be any kin to your Utah Brown line.

Anyway, thank you for postin.

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Lloyd Alfred Doss, Jr. I enjoyed your take on this as well.

Just stopping by to read a few discussions.

Take care all.

Private User

This is the other part of the Brown's connection I have hit a deat end at. I believe this Nancy Brown may be Cherokee or some NA and she married mided blood white and NA Owens (OK and Texas regions as well)

here is the link
Nancy Brown

Jamey, I believe THIS is the tree that you are looking for....

Elder Richard Owings

Are you sure you want to be related to this guy?

http://quantrillsguerrillas.com/en/biographies/96-joshua-holcomb-ow...

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/family/LJJ1-HSL

Something is wrong about the mother though

Hi Diana and Erica,

thanks. I know pretty crazy stuff...yes, the that info on the Owens tree is tough to digest.
I know my Chickasasw/Choctaw is related. Lou Brown is my 3rd gr grandmothers half sister. Her daughter married ans Owens. Anyway, some of the info I found on census records indicated her as white but that is untrue as she and and here daughters arw on the Dawes rolls.

Previous 1 3 4 5 6 7 S

Good morning everyone, I worked this "rowdy" bunch a little last night, there are Owing, Bass, George and Webb's all part of Quantrill's and Mosby's raiders, and they are mostly intermarried.

I just wanted to make a correction to my above comment...Lou Brown os half sister toy 4th gr.grandmother Jincy Wolf Cartubby Anderson Hayes

Thanks for help.on thia Owens connection everyone.

Doesn’t Joshua Holcomb Owings still need to be updated and merged into Jamey’s tree?

yes 😁

Sorry, guess it went right over my head. It is now done and there is no turning back Jamey, you are now officially a member of Quantrill's Raiders... You can now let your rough and rowdy side out as there is a valid explanation!

Thanks Lloyd.

There’s still something very wrong with the wife.

From https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mustain-46

Husband of Margaret E (Goodson) Owings — married 1861

Which is not possible if Jonathan Holcomb Owings died in 1879 as http://quantrillsguerrillas.com/en/biographies/96-joshua-holcomb-ow...

Which also lists his wives as 1) Mary Jane Peden 2) Martha Elizabeth George.

Did Margaret Goodson marry a different Jonathan Holcomb ?

Cant quite see it... says she was hus widow then marries Mustain. The records I found for Earl L. Owens and George Owens seemed pretty solid. I was also going off of what I found on the roots site which it lined up with what I found unless I totally missed something.
Also, there are now 3 Jonathan Holcomb Owings as brothers since the merge. Are we waiting to sort out his wife Margaret before completing merge...which makes sense?

No, we shouldn’t wait if the merge is good. It’s easy to switch out a wrong Spouse.

maybe there is a grandson with the same name?

Doesnt matter, we don’t need to find it, just get her off Quantrill’s Raider. Because the same person who marries a noted Baptist Minister was not this Joshua’s wife.

If you add the correct mother as per the FindAGrave I can do the child switching for you.

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