Origins of "cherokee in the family" stories

Ancestry.com has these databases to search for Native American Records. I know Ancestry.com is an added cost. They do offer a 14-day free trial and some of the databases are free on a regular basis (those marked FREE INDEX are available at the moment).

https://search.ancestry.com/search/group/nativeamerican

Included data collections:

California, Index to Census Roll of Indians, 1928-1933
Census of the Blackfeet, Montana, 1897-1898
Indians of the Pike's Peak Region
Minnesota, Indian Allotment Records, 1888-1919 FREE INDEX
North Carolina, Native American Census Selected Tribes, 1894-1913 FREE INDEX
Oklahoma and Indian Territory, Dawes Census Cards for Five Civilized Tribes, 1898-1914
Oklahoma and Indian Territory, Indian and Pioneer Historical Collection, 1937
Oklahoma and Indian Territory, Indian Censuses and Rolls, 1851-1959
Oklahoma and Indian Territory, Indian Photos, 1850-1930
Oklahoma and Indian Territory, Land Allotment Jackets for Five Civilized Tribes, 1884-1934
Oklahoma and Indian Territory, Marriage, Citizenship and Census Records, 1841-1927
Oklahoma Osage Tribe Roll, 1921
Oklahoma, Creek Equalization Records, 1912-1921
Oklahoma, Historical Indian Archives Index, 1856-1933
Oklahoma, Indian Land Allotment Sales, 1908-1927
U.S., Census Records and Cherokee Muster Rolls, 1835-1838
U.S., Cherokee Baker Roll and Records, 1924-1929 FREE INDEX
U.S., Citizenship Case Files in Indian Territory, 1896-1897 FREE INDEX
U.S., Indian Census Rolls, 1885-1940
U.S., Indian Wills, 1910-1921
U.S., Native American Applications for Enrollment in Five Civilized Tribes (overturned), 1896
U.S., Native American Applications for Enrollment in Five Civilized Tribes, 1898-1914
U.S., Native American Citizens and Freedmen of Five Civilized Tribes, 1895-1914
U.S., Ratified Indian Treaties and Chiefs, 1722-1869
U.S., Records Related to Enrollment of Eastern Cherokee by Guion Miller, 1908-1910
U.S., Schedules of Special Census of Indians, 1880 FREE INDEX
U.S., Wallace Roll of Cherokee Freedmen, 1890-1893
Walker River Valley, Nevada Paiute Indian Records, 1897-1901
Walker River Valley, Nevada Paiute Indian Records, 1902-06
Walker River Valley, Nevada Paiute Indian Records, 1907-12
Walker River Valley, Nevada Paiute Indian Records, 1914-20
Washington, Enrollment and Allotment Applications of Washington Indians, 1911-1919 FREE INDEX

So what you are basically saying Pam is that the early genealogy compilation by the LDS church really isn't much more than what Don Greene and his Shawnee Heritage series has done with the Shawnee, Cherokee and other NA tribes? If they had no credible sources and just gleaned internet info from here and there, what are we to actually believe? Is about 90% of what is on here just trash with no credibility? Is it all just folklore? Beginning to sound as though I should drop the and "science" revert back to my family traditional stories. They may be as true as what is on the Internet...

These rolls are about all we have to go on for NA, as for the Euro origins, if the LDS is inaccurate, we truly have a mess on our hands to fix this World tree.

Thank you, Pam, very helpful.

Lloyd, I do think they are different issues.

The LDS does have lots of terrific records. And also, there are plenty of submitted pedigrees which are excellent. "Old" Jonathan Howton, arriving from England to (eventually) Tennessee and Western Kentucky, also a big Alabama line, has dozens of trees, they're accurate, at least for all the ones I've tracked down. Well, except for "the riverboat gambler." And there's a Mormon in the family - source of submitted pedigrees? Or was that the efforts of great great aunt Thelma in Washington state? Or the football players brother?

BUT goes off the rails on his English ancestry. And also attempts to link him to Houghton families.

So you learn the danger points. First arrivers. Holes of "no records" (like North Carolina). Same name mixups. Links to "glamorous / fashionable"; there was a fad for Welsh princes comes to mind. Notables of course.

We are lucky that there are good books about native American culture.

When you describe your family / areas pride in native ancestry, I contrast that with my aunt's nervousness about discussing her native ancestry with "an educated New Yorker.". What in the world was her childhood experience in Oklahoma to have created that? I don't think I want to know the surely ugly details ...

I am proud of your community for honoring those who walked the land earlier.

Lloyd, you ask, "If they had no credible sources and just gleaned internet info from here and there, what are we to actually believe? Is about 90% of what is on here just trash with no credibility? Is it all just folklore?"

First, I'm not sure what "on here" means to you. And also, the LDS records were mostly compiled pre-internet. Many of them, as Erica notes, were well-researched by an earlier generation of genealogists who had not learned the really bad cut-and-paste-and-copy habits of family history enthusiasts of the past 25 years. The family histories researched by reputable journals such as the New England Genealogical Society were well respected, as well as those documented for DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution) membership, and so on. Back before the 1990s, people had to either go to archives and courthouses to do their research or count on well-documented family memoirs and other documents. Before the internet, family genealogists published )often self-published) books, which were sometimes very well researched and sometimes full of vanity genealogy. (It takes a critical eye to tell the difference.) But there were weak areas, too, where records and documents were not so easily available. Most people couldn't afford to travel to Washington to spend days, if not weeks, in the National Archives, or to go to Europe or other places of immigrant origin to research their immigrant ancestors (not to mention not knowing the language). Native American records were not as easily available as they are today, and definitely not indexed and digitized. So, the digital era has brought both its curses and its blessings. To me, Ancestry,com and its official databases are a huge blessing, despite the cost of annual membership, since they provide me access to material that was hard, if not impossible for the average person to access a generation ago. Our family trees on Geni, on the whole, I believe, are fairly solid, except for big weaknesses in some particular areas--like the Native American trees that have been built mostly from internet-circulated made-up ancestries. What we're trying to do now is to rely on those excellent resources (see the links I added to the Cherokee Genealogy and History Project page just today) and the expertise of people like Kathryn Forbes to try to bring the Cherokee tree from mythology into documented reality. We may just have to accept that, prior to a certain point in history, we will not be able to list Cherokee ancestors. The same is true for European peasants in the middle ages, when the nobility were extremely well-documented but little trace remains of the family trees of the lower classes.

Pam, thank you for updating the resources on the project page https://www.geni.com/projects/Cherokee-Genealogy-and-History/12

And enjoyed the Vine Deloria essay.

Let me ask you all a question. I hope one of you can enlighten me with your expertise. My ged results said the following (3 different tests).... 2 say "North Amerindian + Arctic", 1 says "Amerindian". Does this give any indication as to what kind of Indian? Does anyone know which kind of NA came from the north? Also, my cousin's dna shows "South Amerindian". Some of you already know my history. Chief Meaurroway Straight Tail was my 9th great grandfather. We know he was Shawnee. Would that be strictly Amerindian? If so, what about the Arctic part....and the South Amerindian part..... We, like others, were told we were Cherokee. I am thinkin' we have 2... or even 3 different Indian in us. Please comment.

Diana, you are asking a very complex question, way over my head, and probably not entirely answerable as yet by anyone. Since you are looking at GEDmatch calculators understanding how they work will help you. Artic sounds like an Inuit etc reference population, SouthAmerind sounds like a South American reference population, and yes, they would be different, but how valid a result for you? As far as I know, Inuit etc is definitely different from SouthAmerind, but is SouthAmerind different from Shawnee?

There are good bloggers who break it down; I’m sure you know of the work of Roberta Estes. But since we’re in a Cherokee discussion, I will drop off a link to the somewhat cheeky explainer T.L. Dixon

http://www.rootsandrecombinantdna.com/2016/10/admixture-centrifuge-...

T.L. Dixon is mot reliable a reliable reporter. He’s posting the same mythical trees you see all over the Internet.

@Diana with my experience dealing with gedmatch I would recommend doing admixture mdlp world map -22 click on oracle 4 sometimes it will break down your American Indian to a specific tribe especially if you are showing South American mesothelioma results. It helped me with my South American questions I’ve seen others where it’s pulled up Navajo , arawak Taino and ect... of course this will not help anyone with most North American tribes only a certain few South American tribes will it show. Hope this helps a little..

I was actually just messaging Pam Wilson earlier about Gedmatch , looked at my mother's for Iran Jewish heritage and it reflects on MDLP K23b calculator (don't ask what this is) Amerindian, Ancestral Altaic, South Central Asian and South Indian all combining to equate to 13% which is pretty significant.

Found this link to help understand this somewhat,

http://genealogical-musings.blogspot.com/2017/04/finally-gedmatch-a...

I am understanding that all of these are ancestral NA DNA based on the theory that the NA in the Americas migrated across the land bridge during the Ice Age. You might try this link to see where it leads you to other blogs that help explain these DNA strands and the various search types

Thanks for everyone's comments, I really appreciate it. I will look into it some more. Starting a new job....so my time will be limited on my devotion to geni.

Speaking of Roberta Estes, here is one of her always-excellent blogs that deals with the topic of this discussion about how to treat those family stories.

https://dna-explained.com/2018/01/21/leapfrogging-should-we-believe...

Lloyd, thank you for the link about the Admixtures Guide for Gedmatch. Very helpful!

Great link, Pam. So many good points. I had to piece together what happened on my paternal side with notes taken in the nineties. I literally got in my car and drove to find my father's sister. I only had the town that she was living in and knew that it was an apartment building. She kept in close contact with my mother - corresponding frequently but we had not seen her in several years. So, when I drove to the little town it was early in the morning and "lo and behold" there she was having her morning walk. Long story short.....we poured over the family pics and she told me names and stories about people I had no knowledge of. I took notes. Many years later I began to piece through that information - everything on the notes panned out. What I did not know until my aunt passed was that she was a 1/2 sibling to my father. My grandmother had been previously married and no one ever mentioned it. She even went by my grandfather's (paternal grandmother's second husband) name her entire adult life - although not adopted. Divorce was highly problematic in those days. :)
I really like how Roberta Estes points out that with honest intent we all have something to add to the mix. When I first started adding what I had learned, many established folks balked. The records and graves speak for themselves.

Thanks, Heather! Great story.

I wanted to move a conversation over here to post for posterity since it's more relevant to this discussion topic (I think we were jumping back and forth between these two discussion pages). I really love what Lloyd Alfred Doss, Jr. has to say so eloquently, so I'll re-post a bit of that conversation here.

Lloyd Alfred Doss, Jr.
4/5/2018 at 5:20 PM

All of you are looking at this from a "scholarly" viewpoint and as those of you that know me know that I am not a scholar of history or of genealogy. I am but a simple man of Appalachian origins that set out to attempt to prove my family stories of Indian heritage.

I found, as so many others that I grew up with that the Indian Princess story was just that, a story. It was a badge of honor for the "old ones", something for them to pass on to be proud of. A heritage for the simple "hill folk" that are usually cast aside and forgotten. The mystique of it kept us as children totally mesmerized listening to the stories of the "olden days"...

I believe families cling to these stories to keep them from being forgotten. Every kid up and down my holler and about everyone in school believed themselves to be Indian. Forget the Cowboys, in the southwestern corner of WV and eastern KY they all wanted to be Indian. I grew up in Chief Cornstalk country, Princess Aracoma's home, it was their heritage and they all wanted to be a part of it. Shawnee, Mingo, and Cherokee. I have heard the stories my entire life. It was about the love of the wonderful country we lived in and we believed we were passed that love of the country from those NA ancestors.

It wasn't about the truth, the truth is usually found to be pretty boring and uninspiring, especially to children, they told us of honor and respect for Mother Earth, to hunt and fish and respect every bit of it. The proud Indian way of life. Sadly the truth and DNA is destroying much of this. Almost wish I still lived in that simple vacuum of "Ignorance is Bliss" world I grew up in where everyone was Indian and darn proud of it......

Pam Wilson C
4/5/2018 at 10:22 PM

Lloyd, I loved what you had to say in your 5:20 pm post. I totally understand. And those stories and lessons that come with them are totally important to children growing up, especially in the kinds of conditions you mention. I think you explained it really, really well. But it presents us with a challenge--are we on Geni to try to find the "truth" (often boring) or to hang on to the dreams and legends? I think both can co-exist, certainly, and I would never want you and all of your generation to lose that sense of wonder and that source and symbol of your values and identity. At the same time, though, our goal here is to try to document the "truth," the best that we are able. We can write the stories in our About notes as long as we acknowledge, as you have, that they are just stories. Well, not just "just"--as a writer, I want to emphasize how important stories can be. But I'm not sure Geni's tree is the place for that. What you've written is a beautiful piece, a tiny piece, of literature. I hope you'll write more! And maybe sharing it on the discussion lists, and other places on the internet--maybe even start a blog with your reminiscences of growing up in WV/KY. I would love to hear them and read them.

And yes, I'm guilty of being too scholarly, but I come by it naturally. I'm a college professor, though I "come from" country people and mountain people in Virginia and the Carolinas. Maybe too big for my britches, but I've taken the love of history and of place and the land and turned it into the scholarly work I do.

Nice to get to know, sir.

Lloyd Alfred Doss, Jr.
4/6/2018 at 8:21 AM

Thanks Pam. As bad as it may hurt myself and many others, the truth is what we need to post here for future generations. I want to believe we are building a historical document, something that will hopefully survive the ravages of time, unlike the written documents we struggle to find. We need to reflect the facts as best as documentation will allow.

Yes, the stories are the heart of us all, a big part of "who" we are, our soul I believe. They do need documented also, somewhere, sometime also for those future generations to hear.

These stories whether partially true based on generations of oral tradition passed down and embellished a little each time they were told or just plain and simple fabrications create the memories that shape us all.

I truly appreciate your dedication to this site as I do Erica, who has helped me for years and taught me most of what I do on here. I try my best to use both my heart and my brain in the entries I work. Often it is very difficult to let your brain override what your heart wants. What Kathryn has brought to our table, like it or not is what we have needed from the NA perspective for a long time. We are fortunate to have her.

I do believe many of these stories are fact based, though proving it is an entirely different issue. Oral tradition is all that many of these long extinct tribes had. I no longer know exactly which tribe my mother's NA DNA originates from, as the Mary Foreman/Bare link apparently isn't it. I will continue to dig and attempt to find it, I may never figure it out as many others before myself in my family have died trying. Unlike them, I have the "world wide web" access at my fingertips, but that in itself has created many of the problems we are now attempting to fix.

So I am back to what I was taught as a child by these same ancestors I want to prove, "Tread lightly, listen to your peers and be aware of every part of the world that surrounds you". Everything tells part of the story, from the smallest broken twig, the wind direction, the air that you breath. And most of all don't forget to listen to your heart, it will not lie....

Rereading Lloyd's wise words reminded me to think more on my own perspective, particularly as I try and clarify the ADAIR who is perhaps in my tree.

Ann Musgrove

I'm pretty sure those Musgrove / Cunningham settlers were on the "opposite" side from the Cherokee.

So maybe part of my interest is helping the stories get told correctly, instead of the colonial take.

Erica, If anyone can find this book, It may answer questions pertaining to Adair....

James Adair's 1775 "History of the American Indians", James Adair c.1709-1783

The James Adair who wrote the book was NOT the beginning of the Cherokee Adair line. That was a man named John Adair, not known to be related.

Bottom of page, last paragraph....

http://finest.se/esklisenf/pdf-epub-hereafter-hereafter-1-by-tara-h...

Where is this John Adair profile?

Great idea Pam! Here's another users take on the subject.

Letty "Hatchet Grey" Durham

Do you see on her profile how the very large stone even has her name on it?
A current representative of The Cherokee assured everyone that to the tribes knowledge no one has ever existed in the tribal community who was that person. You know how the records are kept so carefully in Indian country. I think it is strange that this story would live for so long and not be true. The tribal expert explained that it was a common practice of certain folks who were not American Indians to tell "tall tales" to try and receive government assistance. Can you imagine sticking your next out that far for a handout? They must have been in dire straights. smh

Jamey Balester_Please message me for any changes pertaining to my direct ancestors I have sourced. Thank you
yesterday at 6:40 PM
Report
I hope you find something on her that actually will lend to her being Cherokee.
I know many people made adjustments. Some of my Fullblood Chickasaw and Choctaw relatives even claimed less Native blood inorder to be able to have control over their land alotments. If a fullblood Native was given an land alotment they were required someone to hold it in trust for them. Often, many were swindled out of their rightful land this way.
Several of my ancestors even claimed white on census records while their family was listed on the Dawes. I don't think that it is so cut and dry with records as I said before. I suppose my opinion does not really matter as each tribe is able to determine the degree of Indian Blood necessary to actually enroll or be able to "officially" claim Native American blood. In a way the rolls are used to phase out Native Blood. As People mixed in with the whtes and settlers. Natvie people were expected to assimilate and become Americans. Many married whites and mixed in and forgot their hertitage and were ashamed to be called Indian because of predjucides at the time. If not for my second great grandfather requesting family names and Dawes roll numbers, then my family would not have been able to be called Chickasaw and Choctaw.
It was only in 1995 that my grandmother helped all of us become tribal citizens. This because we could trace back to our ancestor on the Dawes. My family was very active in the tribal affairs and establishing the Chickasaw Nation. I wish I was able to trace my supposed Cherokee but I have been able to find two other links in my tree from Geni.
I am all for records and truth of if someone was Native, Jewish, Spanish, Dutch, whatever you name it. The only thing I won't completely discount is the family stories. Sometimes they are wrong and misinformation was given based on regions, but many times they were correct.

I belive I have some Durham in my tree as well or linked through marriages according to Geni paths...those change often though so, who knows.

Anyway, I have enjoyed Geni, but some things, you just can't prove I guess as many have said on here. I am wondering who made up the Moytoy tree?
If Cherokee often adopted people into their tribe, how do we know who was actually Native American? Oh, I forgot, they are the most well documented. I guess I should take note and learn and not be synical. I know that many tribes intermarried as well.

Some instances, one may have signed up on a roll as a particular tribe with a certain blood quantum but the other tribe or tribes of their heritage were not listed.

One of my half Chickasaw and half Choctaw relatives was listed on both rolls and had to choose one.

Also, sometimes people signed up on a spouses roll as Non-Native. Were they always white? Problaly not.

I hope you enjoy all that you have learned about the Eastern Band of Cherokee. I enjoy languages and learning of various cultures as well.

I’m not sure how to interpret the above message. Records WERE kept carefully in Cherokee country by both the Federal government and the Cherokee Nation. There are land suveys from 1819, records of all the land stolen from the Cherokee in the Georgia Land Lotteries, records of the lands saved in North Carolina by the Eastern Band, hundreds of detailed claims for damages and spoilation related to Removal, records of the tens of thousands of non-Cherokee who tried to claim land in Indian Territory or money from the Eastern Cherokee settlement. If not for careful record-keeping neither the western nor eastern Cherokee today would have their nations. The Dawes and Guion Miller processes were incredibly detailed to ensure that no eligible Cherokee missed out and that no non-Cherokee were included. Are either one error-free? Of course not, but along with all the other records we can be sure that few people were missed. Sadly, many of the family stories only surfaced when there were either free land or free money to be had. Others are simply romantic, mythical, wishful thinking by folks who lived on former Indian lands.

Good morning.... Kathie,
Do you have any instances to site that document a reversal of ancient tribal claims rejection?
"Are either one error free?"
Romantic, mythical and wishful thinking can lead to respectful investigation into new places which generates revenue. i.e. books, videos, art, museum membership, trips, casino visits, vacations, etc
That's a good thing for any tribe, right?

It’s always worth looking, it’s always worth learning. Studying the actual history and culture of any Native American tribe is eye-opening and valuable in many ways. There are lots of Cherokee descendants today whose ancestors were not eligible for the Dawes, Guion Miller, or Baker rolls for a variety of reasons, mostly not in the right place at the right time. There were some later additions to both the Dawes and Baker ‘final’ rolls. The Chapman Roll was created in 1852 because people were missed by Siler in 1851. We know about those people because of all the other records that exist. I estimate that at most one out of 100 people with a story of a Cherokee ancestor whose genealogy is traced in one of the groups I’m in actually is a Cherokee descendant. An even smaller number are eligible for citizenship in today’s Cherokee Nation. Are there by-blood descendants of Cherokee people who can’t be identified today? Sure - if a woman left the tribe before 1850, had few or no relatives, was sufficiently white-looking to pass as white and never told anyone what she was, then yes, we may never connect her (much less likely to be a man due to census records). And that’s the point - her descendants cannot be connected, so (until DNA advances provide a direct connection to a proven Cherokee) they cannot claim anything more than a story.

Also, as maligned as the Indians were, for much of our history it has been better to be Indian than black, so that is another source of ‘Indian ancestor’ stories.

Many people are unwilling to accept that their ancestors were the ones who displaced the Cherokee and other tribes, or claimed Indian land or money that wasn’t theirs, or made up stories sbout their ancestry. Who wouldn’t prefer to be the descendant of a Holocaust victim instead of a Nazi soldier? We shouldn’t judge our distant ancestors’ actions by today’s standards, but we can use today’s standards to determine the facts.

https://www.wikihow.com/Curtsy

Most of my Adairs are a different family, arriving from Northern Ireland to Laurens County, SC. For example Rachel Adair married in. They are conflated with other Adair families, especially the famous Dr James Adair, and the "connection" falls apart with a little investigation, illogic revealing itself. The Findagrave pages for George Ross Adair ancestry are all mixed up as example.

It is Rachel's sister Ann Bobo who, I think, carries the Cherokee princess legend in the Bobo family. I'm not sure though, as that's where my intersection ends.

And now I have to figure out if Mary Berry and Mary Musgrove were the same person!

Amen!, Well said Kathryn. The atrocities on both sides were horrid, it just depends on the timing of when it is discussed. Generation to generation, Indians bad, Cavalry good, next Indians good, Cavalry bad. The massacres and murders of innocents from both sides are beyond imagination. It is as much pure and simple hatred as the Holocaust, though not nearly as studied or publicized. Nothing short of attempted annihilation of entire civilizations.

There are many, many, Cherokee, Shawnee and numerous other tribal descendants that will never be known because that is what our ancestors wanted, assimilation equated to surviving in the "new", white man's world.

My wife is a direct descendant of General Edward Hand, known as a great Indian killer, commanded the Eastern armies to destroy any "savage" at any cost, by any means....many of which were innocent women and children. Something to be proud of hundreds of years later? What a shameful legacy. My son lives in Lancaster, Ohio, home of General Sherman, another "great" killer of the "savages", that believed the only good Indian is a dead Indian. The town adores him. I am ashamed of the many "heroes" our children were taught to worship because we know how they got the positions they achieved. The list goes on, Andrew Jackson, George Custer,.. sorry for the rant.

This is why I want the truth, the historical facts placed here for generations to come to judge for themselves. No more cleaning and scrubbing, just tell the truth. They say it will set you free, we shall see.

Thank you all for your insight and reading my rants.

Here is something interesting on the enrollment subject and allotments to various tribes. He particularly talks about the Dawes but also the matching of enrollment of Cherokees on several rolls, rejections and people living outside of IT.

Interesting, his name is Josiah Adair.

Since the Adairs are part of this discussion.

http://www.powwows.com/myths-misinformation-and-motivations-regardi...