Jan Frederick Labuschagne, e6f1 - Death Notice VAB MHG L129

Sharon Doubell based on the outcome of this discussion, can we update and lock this profile as a Master Profile with all relevant information in Master Profile captions (i.e. Labuschagne Geslagsregister information etc).

Source 551 from Labuschagne Geslagsregister:
Prof. FJ Labuschagne, Die Labuschagnes, Waarvandaan en Waar Het Hulle Meetsnoere Geval? (Potchefstroom., 198., ISBN 0 620 06099 9). .... Jan C Visagie, Voortrekkerstamouers 1835-1845 (Universiteit van Suid-Afrika, Pretoria, 2000). .... Alet Swanepoel, Privaat Stamregister van Alet Swanepoel (Privaat, ongepubliseerde dokument., 03/2007.).

Private User I've just made a list of all the FJ Labuschagne death notices I found in VAB. Will share with you later.

That's great! Thank you.

Will do: Private User
What would you like the Curator Note to say?
PS Looks like you need a Labuschagne project.

Has the death notice been moved to the correct profile yet?
Are the fields correct as they stand now?
(Early morning. No coffee yet, so I don't want to do all the research before I respond to you, as I see you're online now :-))

I haven't yet, was awaiting some input from the other managers of that profile e.g. explanation for discrepancy, if any etc. I feel pretty confident though, based on the Labuschagne "geslagsregister" that we've got the right one.

My line of Labuschagnes is a rabbit's warren of Smiths, Labuschagnes, Connoways etc. Incredibly hard to keep track of them all. Hence the need for MPs, I think?

Can you make the curator note the excerpt from "geslagsregister" please? i.e.
a1b3c6d2e3f4g7h1-Jan Frederik Labuschagne [522] is gebore in 1835 te Kaap en is oorlede op 23 Des 1875 te Halfklipfontein, Kroonstad in die ouderdom van 40 jaar.
Jan is getroud met Petronella Maria Bothma [13856] [MRIN: 5322] omstreeks 1858. Petronella is gebore omstreeks 1837. Hulle het sewe kinders gehad:
Petronella Maria
Martha Elizabeth
Maria Dorothea
Jan Frederik
Jan Daniel
Johanna Susanna
Magdalena Catharina

I'm past the coffee and onto the beer already; trying to counteract all the coffee!

:-) Still on the coffee. Not working :-)

Curator Note now says:
Jan Frederik Labuschagne (1835 te Kaap - 23 Des 1875 te Kroonstad )
x c 1858 Petronella Maria Bothma (1837)
*Petronella Maria
*Martha Elizabeth
*Maria Dorothea
*Jan Frederik
*Jan Daniel
*Johanna Susanna
*Magdalena Catharina

but Profile fields are now very wrong. Do we need a new profile for the death notice to apply to?

I'll go down the revisions and undo merges - maybe there's another profile underneath this?

cf Jan Frederik Labuschagne

cf Jan Frederik Labuschagne

cf Jan Frederik Labuschagne

cf Petronella Maria Meintjes, g2

cf Maria Dorothea Labuschagne x Jan Frederik Labuschagne (1809 - 1889) with DN.

The DN in the first post therefore doesn't match either of these.

Who are the parents given for both men in the Labuschagne Register, Drummond?

Jan Hendrik Labuschagne * Cape 26/06/1809 or 29/06/1809 ~ Graaff Reinet 06/07/1812 + Beestenkraal, Kroonstad OFS 24/08/1889 and x. Maria Dorothea Marx are the parents of Jan Frederik Labuschagne *Cape 1835 + 23/12/1875 Halfklipfontein, Kroonstad, OFS.

i.e. the Death Notice was for the correct person, correct parents however the information on BOTH the Death Notice and the profile was incorrect. As I pointed out, based on the information at hand i.e. DN filled out 25/01/1875 (a full 11 months BEFORE he died according to Labuschagne register). She gives his age as 40 and date of decease as 23/12/1854. Even though their will and testament was signed 01/06/1867. I think it's safe to deduce that he actually died 23/12/1874. If we do and we subtract 40 years, leaves us with 1834/1835 birth which matches the Labuschagne register's birth and the parents and wife match the DN etc.

What drew my attention however, was the date of birth on the profile which was c. 1854! Which was totally incorrect, but happened to be the same as the birth year of another Jan Frederik Labuschagne whose parents I am still looking for. He was married to Elsje Maria Johanna Smith. (https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000075504757072&)

Feel free to merge them all into one profile, but lock the date of birth at c. 1835 (until we find a baptism) and the date of death at 23/12/1874 (I think we have abundant evidence of that).

By "merge them all" I obviously DON'T mean the one married to Elsje Maria Johanna Smith as that's clearly a totally different Jan Frederik Labuschagne to the one this thread pertains to.

I see that you're saying there's a written error on the DN. Even the doc itself was created after this date, so I'm pretty okay with acknowledging that.

Where does the Labuschagne "geslagsregister" get the 23 Des 1875 te Kroonstad date from?

Re-merged those three in, but there's definitely an error on at least one of them because it creates a horrible gemors with duplicate parents in the kids below. The managers of those profiles must come to the party here, I'm afraid. I don't have the Labuschagne know-how to make unilateral decisions about who to cut and who to keep.

Hi Sharon, references per Labuschagne Geslagsregister are:
51. Alet Swanepoel, Privaat Stamregister van Alet Swanepoel (Privaat, ongepubliseerde dokument., 03/2007.).

and

522. Ben Cilliers, Genealogië van Afrikanerfamilies in Natal (Publikasie besonderhede onbekend.). .... Phillip Labuschagne, Persoonlike mededeling deur Phillip Labuschagne aan Herman Labuschagne .

I think we can safely deduce the day of decease though using both the SK and Labuschagne Geslagsregister as reference.

Well, not really to such an exact date as 23 Des 1875. Neither is even giving us what the unpublished documents are, or what the personal communication was referencing - but if the managers here are happy with that, then I'm good to just have this as a reference.

Sharon, what I mean is:
1. Wife gives date of decease as 23/12/1854
2. The will/testament is dated 01/06/1867.
3. DN completed 08/01/1875
4. The register states he died 23/12/1875

If you think critically on the above, you can deduce that:
1. He COULDN'T have died 23/12/1875 as she filled out his DN 08/01/1875 i.e. 11 months before the date given as his date of decease by register.
2. He couldn't have died 23/12/1854 as he is there to sign his last will & testament 01/06/1867.
3. You can deduce that he died 23/12/1874. Definitely NOT 23/12/1875 unless his wife was clairvoyant (or worse). Based on the two sources at hand being 1. DN and 2. register.

Hope that clarifies. More broadly speaking he could have died any time between 1867 and 1874. Certainly NOT 1894, as the profile stated 10/02/2018.

Am I being stupid here? (likely :-))

As I see it, there is no good enough reasons to deduce 23/12/1874, specifically.

Isn't it better to say 'before 08/01/1875' ?

We have two sources, the DN and the register. If we accept the register as the only evidence, and true (which many profiles on Geni do, correct me if I'm wrong Judith Susanna Hendrika Marais) then we would have accepted DOB 1835 and DOD 1875. However, we also have the DN using which we can determine he DIDN'T die 23/12/1875 as she completed DN in January 1875 (11 months earlier). So the register is inaccurate, but surely we can't dismiss it completely as a source?

We know he died after 01/06/1867 as he's alive to sign the will and testament. Also his youngest child was born in 26/06/1873, presuming he is the father and she wasn't posthumous that narrows it to about October 1872 to January 1875.

All of the above aside, I think it's within the realm of possibility that a distressed widow wrote a 5 instead of 7 i.e. 23/12/1854 instead of 23/12/1874. You're the curator though Sharon, so I bow in obeisance.

Drummond I do know what enormous yourself, together with Em-Lo and Jaco Strauss are doing regarding the DNS project and tests.

So therefore, also taking into count that you just work on hard proof sources, I must agree.

Sharon Doubell I will however wait for your answer,
judi

Not expecting deference :-) Hopefully that was humourously intended.
Just trying to figure out what you want done. Remember I've never seen this profile or this data before, so what you may be thinking is me being facetious, is me trying to work out what you're referencing.

It definitely is "within the realm of possibility that a distressed widow wrote a 5 instead of 7 i.e. 23/12/1854" - In fact, it's obviously the most likely scenario, even if someone besides her filled it in.
But, why deal in likelihoods when 'before 08/01/1875' is a definite? Surely it's only a matter of time before corroborating sources are found for the Dec date?
Is there a reason to commit ourselves now to stating as fact something that is just a pretty good assumption?

What I wanted done is done. The wildly inaccurate DOB and DOD were changed and the profile was made MP and information locked. Thank you. I’ll cite the sources in the About section. Cheers to absolute certainty.