Agatha - Agatha, again

Started by Private User on Friday, November 3, 2017
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Private User
11/3/2017 at 5:06 PM

Unfortunately the highly touted "Official British Monarchy" site (https://www.royal.uk) has been so jazzed up and dumbed down that it no longer contains any reference whatsoever to Agatha, Edward the Exile, or his *or* her ancestry.

That puts us back to square one with the Usual Suspects: (from http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/agath000.htm)

The Theories

The main hypotheses are listed here, along with the labels that they have been assigned for purposes of the discussion below. A few impossible theories which can be easily dismissed are not given labels.

The German Hypothesis (main version):
Conjectured father (possible): Liudolf, d. 15 or 23 April 1038, count (Braunschweig).
Conjectured mother (possible): Gertrude.

The Russian Hypothesis:
Conjectured father (possible): Iaroslav I, d. 1054, grand prince of Kiev.
Conjectured mother (possible): Ingegerd, daughter of Olaf, king of Sweden.

The Polish Hypothesis:
Conjectured father (improbable): Mieszko II Lambert, d. 10 May 1034, king of Poland.
Conjectured mother (improbable): Richenza, daughter of Ezzo, count palatine of Lorraine.

The Bulgarian Hypothesis:
Conjectured father (improbable): Gavril Radomir, d. 1015, emperor of Bulgaria.
Conjectured mother (improbable): NN, sister of István (Stephen) I, king of Hungary.

The Hungarian Hypothesis:
Conjectured father (very improbable [but adored by the Hungarians]): István (Stephen) I, d. 1038, king of Hungary.
Conjectured mother (improbable): Gisela, sister of Heinrich II, emperor.

The Cristinus Hypothesis:
Conjectured father (very improbable): Christinus, count.
Conjectured mother (highly improbable): Oda, daughter of Bernhard, count of Haldensleben.

The German Hypothesis (alternate version):
Conjectured father (very improbable): Ernst II, d. 17 August 1030, duke of Swabia.

The Bruno Hypothesis:
Conjectured father (very improbable): Bruno, d. 24 April 1029, bishop of Augsburg, 1007-1029, brother of emperor Heinrich II.

The Byzantine Hypothesis:
Conjectured father (no reasonable basis): Constantine IX "Monomachos", d. 1055, Byzantine emperor.

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It should be noted that out of the entire lineup, the only one known for certain to have daughters in excess (five, of whom three, and their husbands, are known) is Yaroslav of Kiev. This is a point in his favor, but the early insistence on Germany or Hungary for Agatha's origin is a point against.

11/3/2017 at 5:13 PM

Yaroslav of Kiev is my bet but we cant attach her to him without solid proof

11/3/2017 at 5:40 PM

My source: 2001 Ancestors of Dover, Ltd, Revised 2002, "Kings and Queens of England" lists Agatha, daughter of Emperor Henry (Heinrich) II as the wife of Eadward the Outlaw or Exile (1016-1057).

There is also an Agatha (Unknown) married to Edmund II, "Ironside", (23 April - 30 November 1016) who preceded Eadward in 1016. This could be the same Agatha.

Private User
11/3/2017 at 5:51 PM

I don't think we'll ever get solid proof - if nobody has found any in a thousand years, there probably isn't any.

It all comes down to opinion and interpretation - my reason for favoring Yaroslav is not only that he had extra daughters, but that he gambled with the happiness of two of his other daughters, marrying (or permitting the marriage of) Anastasia to Andras, then just a rival claimant to the crown of Hungary, and Elizaveta to Harald Sigurdsson, then "just" a wealthy and ambitious Varangian warlord with an arguable claim on the throne of Norway.

Both of these sons-in-law made good on their claims, albeit with difficulty: Andras I won the crown of Hungary, and Harald that of Norway (then he tried for Denmark and England as well) - we know the latter best as "Harald Hardraada".

If Agatha was another daughter and he gambled on Edward the Exile, Yaroslav rolled snake-eyes on that one. But Agatha's daughter Margaret did wind up Queen of Scotland....

As for the other daughter (Anne) whose name and husband are known, she is said to have been the youngest and her father's favorite, and *her* marriage was as the second wife to the widowed king of France, Henri I Capet.

Private User
11/3/2017 at 6:17 PM

JPM: We can rule out "Agatha" as a wife of Edmund Ironside: his wife was named Ealdgyth (and she was the mother of Edmund and Edward, the exiled princes).

"Agatha, daughter of Heinrich II" was an early interpretation of statements in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (first source to give her name), and by John (alias "Florence") of Worcester and (in one place) Ailred of Rievaulx (in another place he says she was Hungarian). Chronologically it's extremely improbable.

Private User
11/3/2017 at 6:32 PM

The real story isn't in accounts, it's in account books...but alas, we have no account books for the courts of any of the Usual Suspects.

One point to consider is whether the medieval sources were quite as well acquainted with geography east of Germany as we are. Adam of Bremen (the earliest source for *anything* relating to Edward the Exile) quite firmly states the boys were exiled to Russia. This indicates that he knew there was a place called "Russia", whether or not he knew how far east it was. Some of the others, one may well wonder, considering that they didn't have a firm grip on the chronology of points east either. John/Florence (and several followers) and Orderic Vitalis (possibly but not certainly independently, name a "Salomon" king of "Hungary" who was a generation or so after Edward the Exile's time (he was in fact the son of Andras I and Anastasia of Kiev).

All the same, the persistence of the name "Salomon" and his association with eastern Europe *may* point back to Kiev again: the biblical Solomon was known for his wisdom, as was Yaroslav "the Wise" of Kiev.

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