Hon. John Rys Hov of How's Court at Shirley Plantation - Hon. John Rice Hooe I as the same as Rice Hooe I discusssion......

All of the details are within the overview profile of the Hon John Rice Hooe I's profile overview.

Tagging Rice Hooe, of Merchant's Hope

It is proposed that Rice = John

I do not see any christening information. I do not see any description of How's Court. The information I follow shows the Rice Hooe biography information I think. For anyone to have two first names at this date was highly unusual, and there's no explanation for that. No description in the place holder parent profile as to "why" this points to Welsh origin.

How did the Hon. John Rys Hov get given the father Rhys ap Gruffudd ? There is nothing in his name that would lead to that connection.

I realised I should be clearer.

1) 1599 is late for someone in Abergavenny to have a father using the patronymic system.

2) but assuming he did, the son, should he use that system, would be "ap Rhys."

3) or, if he decided to use a surname, it would, given this father, probably be Rhys, or Rice, or Price, or Griffith.

4) this guy clearly had a father named Huw, or a grandfather or earlier named Hugh. Rhys and Gruffudd aren't in it.

Laying aside the parents name of Rice Hooe, he does have a christening name for his Rice Hooe name; (pronounced How) RHYS HOOE b. 1599 https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Hooe-5 was christened as John Rice Hooe, in Wales in 1618, and a year later immigrated to his extended family's Virginia home in New Kent at [Shirleys Hundred Acre], the oldest plantation in Virginia since 1613. Rhys Hooe is significant for being the first licensed trade patent holder specific to the trade within what was called, "Countrey of Apamatica". [1] He was a licensed Trader in a time when things had settled down in a period of peace with the Eastern Native Americans. The license to trade came later in Hooe's life, something he delegated out, from 1656 til his death.

Was Capt John Rice Hooe, the Burgess and Licensed Trader of nobility? Yes, according to His Majesty's Stationery Office, Captain, Trader, and Burgess RIce Hooe I name was Capt John Rice Hooe I and he was added the roles of the licensed "Brotherhood of Traders" to the Eastern Siouan of the Ocaneechi starting in 1656 and delegated his role out to others in this Early British American Colonial period in the 17th century. [2] At the time of his trade license being obtained, he was joining Edward Bland's brother who had come over from England to secure the rights to the trade status of Edward who had passed away. Capt Rice Hooe was not always a trader, having begun his career as a naval captain. After his career as a naval captain, he became a Surry County, Virginia Burgess who held court in what was known as How's Court at SHIRLEYS HUNDRED ACRE in NEW KENT Virginia, which had begun as a Fur Trade Colony founded by William Claiborne in 1631 as a Fur Trade outpost to the Eastern Algonquian. The main trading Chief of that group was Chief William Tapp, a man of means due to trade with William Claiburne's appointed sailor, John Smith of Purton (aka short for Powhatan). The area of said trade has now been made into a Weromicoco State Park. It is part of the John Smith Chesapeake Trail System. Vast amount of studies have been put into these trade routes and networkings of the Eastern Siouan, Algonkian, and Shawnee from the Susquahanna to the are of the Weroances' lands of the Fur Trade of the 17th Century.

When Was Capt Hooe brought into the fur trade community and what impact did it have on further American historic events? Capt/Trader Hooe was first patented by the American Colonies to trade among the Ocaneechi (Eastern Siouan, his in 1656 which was 10 years after Edward Bland was licensed to trade in the same area; but, the trade became restricted at the 1656 time frame to occur in just two locations: Ft. Henry and the home of John Floyd. The Trader License is listed in the Dinwiddie Co. Vr records as being connected to earlier trader Edward Bland.[3][4]

It is noted as a citation listed under How -, see Howe, in the National Archives Online, that the How Court was held in the Hooe manor in the County of Sussex on pages 1047, 1048 in the Bexhill. 'Index: H', in Calendar of Treasury Books, Volume 5, 1676–1679, ed. William A Shaw (London, 1911), pp. 1555-1568. One Native American male went over this court's position to the Justices to obtain his freedom after a three-year period of agreed indenture and was freed. This was an historic breakthrough and was a Saponi male of unknown, per the Ocaneechi historians.

This same profile subject, Trader-Capt Rice Hooe's had descendant owners of Hooe's Ferry who were mentioned, along with their ancestry and their former Welsh locations of their common Welsh families, by George Washington's diarist as George Washington was detained in their home one night due to the Ferry not running because of bad weather in what would have typically been the normal schedule, "running from Mathias Point in Virginia to lower Cedar Point in Maryland, was established in 1715 by Col. Rice Hooe III (Hoe, Howe), grandson of Rice (Rhuys) Hooe, a seventeenth-century immigrant from Wales. At Colonel Hooe’s death (1726), the ferry was inherited and run by his son John (1704–1766), and following John’s death by John’s widow, Ann Alexander Hooe, and their son Gerard Hooe (1733–1786), who married Sarah Barnes (1742–1815) and lived at the family home of Barnsfield in Mathias Neck, Stafford County.[5] From Hooe’s ferry, George Washington probably retraced his steps home but entered no expense in his ledger for recrossing the Potomac to reach Mount Vernon."[6] This is the Subclade Family of John Price of Plymouth Family Group whose ydna of R M269 is of the welsh who tie to the Hoo of England in the 16th century per FTDNA participant 1121187 Rice Hughes/Hooe of New Kent, Virgina b. 1652. See source below.

Because George Washington was detained on one evening of bad weather, having used the Hooe Ferry on various occasions, his diarist took down the family information for the Welsh ancestry which is found in the National Archives; George Washington's Clerk's Diary Input states: "The Hooe descendant owners of Hooe's ferry,... "running from Mathias Point in Virginia to lower Cedar Point in Maryland, was established in 1715 by Col. Rice Hooe III (Hoe, Howe), grandson of Rice (Rhuys) Hooe, a seventeenth-century immigrant from Wales. At Colonel Hooe’s death (1726), the ferry was inherited and run by his son John (1704–1766), and following John’s death by John’s widow, Ann Alexander Hooe, and their son Gerard Hooe (1733–1786), who married Sarah Barnes (1742–1815) and lived at the family home of Barnsfield in Mathias Neck, Stafford County.[3] From Hooe’s ferry, George Washington probably retraced his steps home but entered no expense in his ledger for recrossing the Potomac to reach Mount Vernon. See in National Archives; pages 1047, 1048 in the Bexhill. 'Index: H',See under How and Hoo. [4]" [7]

The ap Griffith sirname is a Floyd County kinship family of Kentucky also associated with Group 7 subclade. FTDNA- Family Tree DNA Hughes Project has assigned the New Kent Rys Hooe to ydna R1b = R-M269- the Capt/Burgess John Rice Hooe of Shirley's Hundred Acre of New Kent.
Reference[edit source]

Sources: Dinwiddie - "Countrey of Apamatica" Chapter 1". Vagenweb.org. Retrieved 3 August 2017. ^ Capt John Rice Hooe - Navel Officer and Trader Patent to Ocaneechi signed his name as Rice Hooe. 368"^

^ Citing "I" Calendar of State Papers Colonial, America and West Indies: Volume 18, 1700. Ed. Cecil Headlam. London: His Majesty's Stationery Office, 1910. 806-809 ^ HENING, 4:93; Va. Gaz., R, 24 Mar. 1768; NICKLIN [1], 368"^ "Founders Online: [April 1760]".

^ "Dinwiddie - "Countrey of Apamatica" Chapter 1". Vagenweb.org. Retrieved 3 August 2017.
^ Capt John Rice Hooe - Navel Officer and Trader Patent to Ocaneechi signed his name as Rice Hooe. Citing "Index: H." Calendar of State Papers Colonial, America and West Indies: Volume 18, 1700. Ed. Cecil Headlam. London: His Majesty's Stationery Office, 1910. 806-809

Bexhill (August 3, 2017). Calendar of Treasury Books. Treasury Dept. pp. pp.1047,1048.

"FTDNA".

The marriages, death date and children do not match the Encyclopedia of Virginia

https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Encyclopedia_of_Virginia_Biog...

The immigrant Rice Hooe died before Dec 3 1655, when his widow Sarah (unknown) qualified on his estate.

His only son Rice Hooe ll married Jane Seymour, (St. Mars) "of Norman descent.". (then 7 gens of descent).

No "Robert Hughes."

Read it before. Where's the Christening record?

If his widow administers his estate in 1655, how is he getting a license in 1656 after he's dead?

"Rice Hooe died before Dec 3 1655"

"he was added the roles of the licensed "Brotherhood of Traders" to the Eastern Siouan of the Ocaneechi starting in 1656"

The grandfather of the Rice Hooe III was the Captain/Burgess and Naval Captain of Shirley's Hundred Acre, not the one who died in 1566 because that is when THIS one was delegating his trade. Different person.

The Christening Record is not needed; because the ydna has the New Kent Rice Hooe as the M269 and not the Rice Hooe of the I P37.

The Rice Hooe from Wales is the line for the How's Court and How's Ferry Rice Hooe III.

The New Kent ydna test has the line to New Kent. That is not the Rice Hooe of the Encyclopedia entry.

The ap Griffth is part of the FTDNA haplogroup.

Also, in the haplogroup is Robert Hughes, Price, Rice and all the Brotherhood of Trader names on record as Traders within the licensed group of delegates.

If this gentleman died in 1680, he is not the same as the Geni profile for Rice Hooe.

It sounds like we agree and the merge should not happen.

Rice Hoee II and Sarah should stay with the the Hon John Rice Hooe and his brother Robert Hughes.

If they are not merged, maybe the Rice Hooe can be the profile of the person of the name Rice Hooe who died in 1666 because that is not the Welsh Trader who is the family that GW diarist describes.

The Hon John Riys Hooe I, father of the New Kent Robert Hughes of the ydna M269 has the direct ydna line claiming descent from the Shirley Acre New Kent family.

However Rice Hooe, II, of Merchant's Hope is of Charles City County and Stafford County. This is not New Kent & the Shirley Plantation?

With me you gotta talk dates, locations, records. I can't help about DNA.

Sorry here's the other 2nd Rice Hooe,

Rice Hooe, II, of Merchant's Hope

His mother was Sarah:

On 3 Dec 1656, "Rice Hooe of Merchant's Hope in Charles City, sonne and lawful heir of Rice Hooe, late of the place sold to William Hurt of Buckland, planter, with advice and consent of his mother and guardian, Mrs. Sarah Hoe, widow", 300 acres in James City granted to said Rice Hoe dec'd, 4 Jun 1639. This deed was signed by Sarah Hooe and Rice Hooe. By 31 Dec 1689, Rice Hooe had married the widow of Thomas Howard, apparently.

I think Sarah Hooe should be merged into Sarah Hooe

Rice Hooe II needs to stay with the Shirley Acre New Kent Burgess because Rice Hooe III's Ferry of How's Ferry belonged to the same family as the New Kent family of Hooe's Manor of Charles City . Can there be two separate profiles?

Sarah Hooe was a Headright. She can't be Jane Seymour.

The only source cited here for the wives is an amateur, vanity site. No citations to primary evidence:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mysouthernfamily/...

This site says Rice Hooe I's "wife's name is alternately given as Jane Seymour and Mary Seymour."

Then a bit later:
"The wife of the Rice Hooe who emigrated in 1635 is given in one place as Mary Seymour (A History of Chapman and Alexander Families, genealogy.com, p. 173), and on the same page as Sarah ??

Although Rice Hooe's wife is Mrs. Sarah, her maiden name of Goodwin is not confirmed. "Sarah Goodwin" was the name on a headright grantd to Rice Hooe and finding no other "Sarah" identified as his wife it has been assumed that he married Sarah Goodwin. They may have married while Rice was in England the second time, and Rice II may have been born in England. However, neither Sarah nor Rice II are apparently mentioned on the passenger list of the "America."

So, it appears his wife was named Sarah (given in the admin of his estate). Everything else is speculation.

Rhys ap Griffith, then, is related to the person he has been given as a child.

That's nice, I suppose, but there is no evidence given here so far that he is the father, and naming conventions argue that he is not.

He needs to be detached.

We already have the Hooe line on Geni. It's been discussed at length. This new duplicate line is pointless. We should delete it and continue working on the existing line.

Original line: Rice Hooe, II, of Merchant's Hope

New duplicate line: Rice Hooe, II, of Merchant's Hope

Published descent from Rice Hooe l, re uploaded, here:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000068841696033&

You'll notice he concludes that Jane Seymour may be entirely mythical, to account for the given name "Seymour" in later Hooes.