Killed by a mob?

Started by Bill Barnes on Thursday, September 28, 2017
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Erica Howton
What about "Stampeding Mob" or "Died as a Result of a Stampeding Mob"??? for a Cause of Death project & putting it under the "Accidental" heading. We could put a referral in the "Killed by a Mob" to this one & put a comment to distinguish the 2 in both???

Erica Howton
This site ( [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_stampedes Wikipedia - List of human Stampedes]) lists places & eat. deaths from human stampedes... I thought to list the dates, places and estimated # of deaths & if anyone wants to make a sub category for any it would be up to them or they can let us know that a sub category is needed... There are around 37 situations for the 20th century (wow!!!) with deaths (there were several more, but no deaths indicated so won't mention them, or if so will list them at the end... What do you think???????

Should I continue? Still need a title -- kind of like "Died as a Result of a Stampeding Mob"...

I'd just call it Stampede. Shorter is better.

If you have profiles to put in it, then you have a project.

Erica Howton
I have completed a Stampede project @ https://www.geni.com/projects/Stampede/45569

It is set up so that it can be either an "add to this project if specific info unknown" or an umbrella project so that sub projects can be added under it or both. It probably needs a statement to that effect.

There were just tooooooo many potential people & Stampedes to pick just one with deaths. I used the info from the Wikipedia article above... I still need to do some more formatting & look for a pix... Let me know what you think...
Pat

Wow! I didn't know there were so many stampedes, good thing it's a separate project.

Yes, a specific event could be spun off into a related project but no need for that until someone has the profiles.

Good image, nice work.

Erica, I also linked it to the "Killed by a Mob" with a note there that there is a difference-- one is with intent & the other is accidental... See if the intro into the "Killed by a Mob" is ok.

How do you want to word an intro / purpose for the "Stampede" project???

As to the pix, there are several options, but I attempted to pick one that would not focus on one tragedy & would be sensitive to the feelings of those who lost someone in a stampede...

Reads very clearly to me

Erica,
I added this to the "Stampede" project:

"This is more of an umbrella project. You may add someone who has died in a human stampede here or if you would like a project for the specific event, please leave a message in this discussion: Medically related projects"

Is this ok or is there a better way to word it???

"You might want to make a project around a specific stampede event. If so, please mention in discussion (pointing link)"

Erica,
Thanks. How is this:
"This is more of an umbrella project. You might want to make a project around a specific stampede event. If so, please mention it in this discussion: [https://www.geni.com/discussions/164998 Medically related projects]"

Perfect except you are thinking of starting a non medically related discussion maybe from the cause of death portal ?

Thanks for all the hard work and fine-tuning - I think you've nailed the distinction between mob killings (which are intentional killings of known individuals) and people killed in a stampede or crush (which is usually accidents in a larger event).

My only quibbles are under the notables - the LA riots and Black Friday death would be better under stampede and aren't notables. Neither is my wife's 15th great-grandfather (all we really know about him is that he was killed by a mob and that his sons faced legal action over what might have been due to their exacting some kind of revenge). Also some of the further reading is best over in stampede.

However, all very minor stuff that is easy enough to sort out. I am also amazed by the sheer number of deaths caused by stampedes - killed by a mob is a useful but relatively minor project, while stampede is the kind of project that is almost crying out to be a parent of dozens of sub-projects focused on different stampedes.

Interestingly though I have actual relatives "killed by a mob" (tarred & feathered in North Carolina; lynched in Kentucky; stabbed in Louisiana ...) and haven't run across a stampede victim. Maybe it's what makes the newspapers.

Bill Barnes, Erica Howton,
I just saw your concerns above. So made some modifications to both projects: [https://www.geni.com/projects/Stampede/45569 Stampede] & [https://www.geni.com/projects/Killed-by-a-Mob/45478 Killed by a Mob].

I moved some of the info from the Killed by a Mob to the Stamped project. Hope what is in both now works for you. If it still needs modification let me know.

I do have info on riots in the Killed by a Mob as that can start out as an intent to kill one or more specific people, but get out of hand... so have left it there. Unless you feel it maybe needs to go in the Stampede project (also?). Maybe this statement about rioters: "Riots can start our with an intent to kill one or more specific people, but gets out of hand." needs to be added at the end of the paragraph to show that it can fit in this project???

Oooops, just looked at the "Killed by a Mob" in Geni & found that the info about Riots was deleted... Didn't do so on my computer's copy of the project. :-( However, should info about Riots be included in the "Killed by a Mob" project as sometimes it does start out with intent to kill one or more people and degenerates as more people join in & focus gets lost in the process??????? Didn't this happen with Rodney King? or was it someone else?

This is what I have about riots:
A riot is a form of civil disorder commonly characterized by a group lashing out in a violent public disturbance against authority, property or people. When a group of people has assembled because they're emotional and angry about something, it only takes one act of violence to whip the crowd into a fury. Others will follow the initial rioter's lead and begin destroying property or hurting people. Being part of a group can destroy people's inhibitions, making them do things they'd never otherwise do. Riots often occur in reaction to a perceived grievance or out of dissent. Historically, riots have occurred due to poor working or living conditions, governmental oppression, taxation or conscription, conflicts between ethnic groups, (race riot) or religions (sectarian violence, pogrom), the outcome of a sporting event (sports riot, football hooliganism) or frustration with legal channels through which to air grievances. Riots can start our with an intent to kill one or more specific people, but gets out of hand.

Should some or all of it also go in the "Stampede" project???

Sorry, guess I don't know my history very well... the riots and resulting deaths occurred after Rodney King was beaten & he didn't die at the time...

What would you classify riots under??? Should it be a separate project??? Maybe have the paragraph above & and add: "A riot can result from an intent to kill one or more people or cause accidental deaths."

What really would be the distinction between "killed by a mob" and "died in a riot" and "died in a stampede" ?

A riot may or more not result in an accidental death.

A stampede is accidental death and probably not a riot.

Killed by a mob is a kind of riot.

I think it's a matter of cutting down the definition of "riot" space given to it in "killed by a mob."

"Riot events" could be spun off into event projects, which are not "cause of death." The cause of death project would be killed by a mob (if intentional) or "killed in a riot" (if accidental), and as usual, I would be hesitant about creating a project in advance of profiles to put in it.

Perhaps we don't need a separate riot project:

* If a riot sets out to do harm to a specific individual or group of individuals, then it is a mob

* If a riot gets out of hand and people get accidentally killed, then it is a stampede or crush

So if a group comes together to go an kill someone, which they succeed it doing, but things get out of hand and a few people (in the group or innocent passers-by) get trampled to death, then the former deaths go in the mob category and the latter go in the stampede category. As there are clearly quite a few deaths involved, it'd probably warrant its own project into which everyone would go, and then they'd also be assigned to individual projects depending on how people died (if the mob set out to kill a few people and some are hung and some burned alive, then they could also go into the specific projects too).

You'd need to look at each case individually:

Keith Blakelock - I'd say killed by a mob, during a riot, as they seemed intent on killing a policeman:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Keith_Blakelock

Actually, a riot one might be needed - crushes or stampedes tend to be accidents, while a riot is a deliberate attempt to cause mayhem. It might be some people are killed accidentally in the crush, but I couldn't really fit these in either project:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/30-killed-as-ram-rahim-sup...

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/911759/28-inmates-killed-in-mexico-pri...

This gives quite a good breakdown of how complicated the types of deaths can that happen during a riot:

http://www.freep.com/story/news/detroitriot/2017/07/23/victims-detr...

In addition, some people are killed in the attempt by the authorities to stop the riot. That would be something unclassifiable under either a mob or stampede.

So something like: "killed during a riot"

Some riots don't end in fatalities (although if it had, this would fit a mob):

https://www.geni.com/projects/Before-the-Revolution-Pine-Tree-Riot-...

Some do and while they have the whiff of a mob, so many people largely from one specific group, I think it'd count as a riot:

https://www.geni.com/projects/The-Burning-Massacre-Destruction-and-...

So you could even have a "Riot" parent project.

I suspect this would count as a riot-related death (he died from his injuries later):

Patrolman John van Beuren

It looks like this should be under mob:

Sir Dafydd Mathew

Erica Howton,
Would it be a good idea to add a comment at the top to both "Killed by a mob" & "Stampede" about riots & deaths resulting as above with links to the opposite project link, such as the following (or something similar)???

"People can die in riots, however each case should be evaluated individually based on intent.
* If a riot sets out to do harm to a specific individual or group of individuals, then it is a mob, so see: [https://www.geni.com/projects/Killed-by-a-Mob/45478 Killed by a Mob]
* If a riot gets out of hand and people get accidentally killed, then it is a stampede or crush, so see: [https://www.geni.com/projects/Stampede/45569 Stampede]"

Bill Barnes, has Keith been added to the "Killed by a mob" project? (I haven't looked yet.)

Thanks for your input, Erica & Bill.

PC Keith Blakelock isn't yet listed on here

Some other random examples on Geni:

Riot (getting too big for a mob):
Pêro Vaz de Caminha

Riot?:
Edward Gorsuch

Riot:
John M. Pinckney, US Congress

Riot:
https://www.geni.com/projects/Chicago-Haymarket-Affair/35524

https://www.geni.com/discussions/172408?msg=1175553 sure, link to the other projects I think I'd use simple language and a case example (John M. Pinckney, US Congress might be good) to walk through the project membership logic

Are there enough accidental decapitations? I've looked around but most decapitations listed on here are deliberate beheadings. Perhaps "beheadings" could change to "decapitations"?

Might be worth raising here:
https://www.geni.com/discussions?discussion_type=project-27796

Why not make the "beheading" title to: "Beheading / Decapitation"??? If there is a project for both, then merge them???????

Well it isn't that I couldn't find any, but the sheer number of beheadings listed as decapitations rather drowns out any accidental decapitations. If there were enough, the difference in intent would make it a worthy project. However, for now, it might be better in with beheadings and you can keep an eye out for any accidents that come up.

Even Googling accidental decapitations includes a decapitated statue and tomato plant, as well as a magic trick.

https://www.google.com/search?q=accidentally+decapitated

These say it is rare (warning, some explicit photographs):

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2090536X11000657

http://journals.sbmu.ac.ir/ijmtfm/article/viewFile/IJMTFM-6382/pdf_43

Maybe the following should be added to the "Beheading" project just as an FYI with the last 2 sites mentioned:

" Accidental decapitations are rare occurrences’ and their mention is rare in the medical literature. " See:
* [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2090536X11000657 Egyptian Journal of Forensic Sciences, Volume 2, Issue 3 Accidental decapitation September 2012 /react-text react-text: 70 , Pages 112-114 – An urban legend turned true]

* [http://journals.sbmu.ac.ir/ijmtfm/article/viewFile/IJMTFM-6382/pdf_43 Umesh-Babu R, Kiran J. Accidental Decapitation; a Case Report. International Journal of Medical Toxicology and Forensic Medicine. 2015; 5(1): 36-8.] "

What do you think?

Showing 31-60 of 95 posts

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