Sir Roger Corbet, Kt. - The Corbet Mess and the Visitations of Shropshire

Eyton on the origin of the Tasley-Hadley Corbets:

"[303] There are three names on the list of Fitz-Alan's tenants, whose lands, held in 1165 by service of 1 muntator each, I have nothing which enables me to identify. They are Roger Walensis, Nicholas Maucovenant, and John de Hanewode. The first of these I should conjecture to have been Lord of Tasley, had not the Historians of Shrewsbury (vol. i, p. 80, note 3) suggested that he (Roger Walensis) was identical with Roger de Powis. The latter was certainly never Lord of Tasley; nor yet can I find that he or his descendants ever held anything under Fitz-Alan. On the other hypothesis (that Roger Walensis was a different person from Roger de Powis, and, if so, possible Lord of Tasley in 1165) it will still remain unsettled whether he were the father of Roger Corbet and himself a Cadet of the Baronial House of Caus, or whether, dying without issue, his estate passed to Roger Corbet as his nearest of kin. Certain it is that Roger Corbet had Tasley by inheritance, but whether through his Father or Mother we cannot say, nor can we point out his degree of connexion with the House of Caus. Contemporary with him was another Roger Corbet, I say another because the latter was a younger brother of Richard Corbet (of Wattlesborough, I suppose), and could not in the ordinary course inherit such a fee as Tasley. Yet these two brothers, Richard and Roger, may have been sons of different mothers, and the mother of Roger, the youngest, may have been heiress of Tasley."

It was this Roger Corbet who married Cecily, daughter and sole heir of Alan de Hadley, and for all intents and purposes founded the Tasley-Hadley branch(es) of the house of Corbet.

Don't know his parents yet but this Sir Robert Corbet, Sheriff of Shropshire may have married Ida first, and his daughter Johanna married a de la Pole & passed into Welshdom.

See http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2014-03/...

Cadair site it down, I peeked at the Burke's reference which is given as good and ran screaming away at the sight of a Tudor name.

Ida? Corbet her parents are correct but does she have too many marriages as well as confused children ?

That's the Robert who married 1) Ida 2) Margaret de Arundel. "Katherine Le Strange" had nothing to do with him.

Just finished combing the index to Hamon LeStrange's history of his family - and there's not a Catherine/Katherine in the lot. Nor is there any reference to *any* LeStrange/Corbet marriage any earlier than Elizabeth LeStrange's marriage to Robert Corbet of Moreton in the 14th century (she was of the Blackmere branch, not the Knockin one). Somebody making stuff up again?

https://books.google.com/books?id=lfIxAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontco...

The soc.gen.med thread thinks they unconvered fhe theory it was Katherine Strange as mother of Johanna de la Pole

My question is - which Robert was her father?

Cadair site is still down and anyway I don't think Bartrum identified Robert any further than her father and of Moreton Corbet. And he missed her 2nd marriage, apparently she retained her de la Pole surname (or reverted to it in her second widowhood)

I have disconnected Margaret Warren from Sir Peter Corbet, of Hope-Juxta-Caus, Knight.

Her birth & death dates are a generation different to the other children and documents record Peter's children as William, Joan & Pernell.

We're making progress.

Found one of the Catherine Gray as mother of an Ancient Planter of the Virginia Colony.

One more fake husband to go.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WALES.htm#Maredudddied1265B

i)          OWEN de la Pole (-1293).  m as her first husband, JOHANNA Corbet, daughter of Sir ROBERT Corbet & his wife ---.  Owen & his wife had two children: 

(a)       HAWISE “Gadam/the Hardy” (1290-[Aug 1345/1353])).  m (1309) JOHN Cherleton, son of ROBERT Cherleton of Cherleton, Wrockwardine, Shropshire & his wife --- (-1353).  Lord of Powys, de iure uxoris.  He was summoned to Parliament in 1313 whereby he is held to have become Lord Cherleton. 

(b)       GRUFFYDD (1291-1309).  m as her first wife, ELA de Audley, daughter of NICHOLAS de Audley & his wife Catherine Giffard.  She married secondly Sir James de Perrers, and thirdly Piers Corbet. 

I believe the Catherine le Strange is a disproven theory of the Welsh genealogist Morris. Lucy Tregoz did not have a daughter Catherine.

I believe Johanna who married Owain de la Pole was the daughter of the mystery Ida / Catherine, if she had been the Arundel wife we'd know who she was. :)

Conforming the tree according to http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hwbradley/aqwg140... unless IPMs etc tell me otherwise, and the Catherine le Strange profile will be merged into Ida.

Since "Ida" is the name in the one bit of primary documentation we have (a record of fines from Robert's time), I say go with Ida.

Removing the second LeStrange connection also makes Owen and Joan merely "kissin' cousins", which the Church would be more comfortable with.

When this all calms down I will see how the Welsh genealogies conform.

Hmm - uppermost branches of the Corbet tree look heavily fictionalized. Wasn't the "Carnaghi" thing exposed as a myth? Giovanna le Corbet And isn't it true that there are NO records of "Le Corbeau" having any "first name", let alone Hugh? Sir Hugh Corbet, Jarl of Caux

At present "Le Corbeau" has four sons and *two* daughters - Petronell I can see, because that would explain how the Burnells acquired Acton Burnell from the Corbets (marriage portion?). But what about the extraneous Isabel?

Sons Hugh and Renaud are specced as having stayed home to manage the French estates. But did any of their younger sons ever wander across the Channel in search of property? There's also "Le Corbeau's" alleged younger brother Robert, nothing specced about him at all. Things that make you go "Hmmm...."

Some corrections I've made:

Most secondary sources have assigned Emma Corbet to the wrong William Corbet. She was the wife of William Corbet of Kings Bromley and widow of John de Oddingseles.

William Corbet married Elizabeth de Baa not Emma Corbet

Confirmed in the IPM's for William Corbet & Thomas de Baa (brother of Elizabeth de Baa).

They do look fictionalized but it's higher up than where I usually work so I'm not sure.

Roger son of Corbet who I think is this person Roger FitzCorbet, Baron of Caus was Lord of 27 Manors in 1086.

See: http://opendomesday.org/name/470800/roger-son-of-corbet/

Bah it's de Perers, not de Ferrers,

Ela, widow of Griffin de la Pole, married James de Perers, brother of Richard de Perers."

Footnote on https://archive.org/stream/collectionshisto01powy#page/58/mode/2up

This article is good reading

This profile is very suspicious for a number of reasons: Don Michele dei Carneghi

Most notably, the "comune" of Carnago, from which the name supposedly derives, is in extreme northern Italy, even about 25 miles northwest of Milan. Yet he's supposed to be a *Florentine*?

(There are still Carneghi to this day in Busto Arsizio, which is a few towns south of Carnago.)

(Erica) I think that localizes James de Perers a bit more. Notes under "Alice Perrers" (who has recently been found NOT to be of this family): "Sir Richard Perrers was M.P. for Hertfordshire in several parliaments of Edward II and the early years of Edward III (Return of Members of Parliament), and was sheriff of Hertfordshire and Essex from 1315 to 1319, and again in 1327, 1329, and 1330. He may be the same Sir Richard Perrers who, in consequence of his quarrel with St. Albans, suffered a long imprisonment from 1350 onwards, was outlawed in 1359, and whose son, Sir Richard Perrers, in vain endeavoured to obtain redress (Gesta Abbatum, iii. 199–209)." https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Perrers,_Alice_(DNB00)

Unfortunately this is too early for the "History of Parliament Online", and extant records for Hertford/Hertfordshire are sketchy.

As to why Alice doesn't belong to the Perrers family by birth, evidence from a petition in the National Archives:

Dated 1377, a John “Kendale requests payment of £4 15s 7d owed to him by Alice Perers for various parcels of cloth sold to Janyn Perers, Alice’s former husband, in 34 Edward III (1360-1).”

Some notes on a Richard de Perrers:

Inquisitions Post Mortem, Edward III, File 42

662. RICHARD DE PERERES, DE PERRERS or DE PERERS.
Writ, 29 March, 9 Edward III. (1335)
CAMBRIDGE. Inq. Friday after St. Laurence, 9 Edward III.
Eversdon. The manor, held of William le Latimer by knight’s service.
Edmund his son, aged 15 years, is his next heir of the said manor.
HERTFORD. Inq. 4 May, 9 Edward III.
Chesthunte. A messuage, land and rent, including two parks containing 40a., held of John, duke of Britanny and earl of Richmond, by service of a quarter of a knight’s fee.
Richard his son, aged 40 years, is his next heir.
HERTFORD. Inq. 4 July, 9 Edward III.
Knebbeworth. The manor (extent given), held of Robert de Insula, lord of Coveneye, by knight’s service; and it renders yearly to the king 9d. for sheriff’s aid.
He died on 21 May, 9 Edward III. Edmund his son, aged 15 years, is his next heir of the said manor.
Wrobeleye. Certain tenements called Wrobeleye (extent given), held of the heirs of William de Ayete, by service of 13s. yearly; and 30a. land (held) of the abbot of St. Albans, by service of 5s. yearly, and 2 1/2d. for sheriff’s aid.
Richard his son, aged 30 years, is his next heir of Wrobeleye.
C. Edw. III. File 42. (16.)

Disentangling the Perrers (Periers) inheritance is a bit difficult, but son Richard appears to have done better than Edmund at continuing the family line -" [Periers, in Cheshunt] was still in the hands of the Periers family in 1430, when William Periers granted his manor of Periers to Thomas Gloucester and William Thornton." http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/herts/vol3/pp441-458#h3-0003 (Edmund, depending on which account you read, had three sisters or three daughters and no male heirs.)

Chasing Perrerses, I ran into some Hoos, namely Sir Robert de Hoo and wife Beatrice de Anderville (Audeville)

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/5ac8fd68-e3ba-47... (excerpts)

Grant by Beatrix, formerly wife of Robert de Hoo the elder, lady of Knebworth to Isabel, daughter of the Lord Richard de Perrers 'my god-daughter of Bostlyngfielde in Khebworth with a wod called Grafrugg'. If Isabel died without heirs, then to Lord John de Perrers 'my son'. 7 October 1314. [Isobel, we learn later, was also her granddaughter. Reason for Beatrice calling Lord John "my son" is unclear - another godson?]

Acknowledgement by Beatrice de Hoo, lady of Knebworth, that she is bound to Sir Richard de Perrers kt, to the payment of £20 yearly out of the manor of Knebworth.

Witnesses: Geoffrey de le Lee, John de Glommyll, William Legat, John Poleyn, Richard de Botelor. 9 April 1315.

Grant by Beatrice, formerly wife of Sir Robert de Hoo, to Sir Richard de Perrers and Joan his wife, her daughter, of all goods and chattels live and dead which she had in her manors of Knebworth & Everesdon, Cambridge. 26 November 1315.

Appointment by Beatrice, formerly wife of Sir Robert de Hoo, of John de Northwode valet her attorney to deliver to Sir Richard de Perrers and Joan his wife seizin of the manors of Knebworth and Everesdon, together with the advowson of Knebworth church. 28 November 1315.

Quitclaim by Isobella, daughter of Sir Richard de Perrers, kt, the younger, to Edmund de Perrers her brother of all her lands, woods etc of Rustling and Graferugge in Knebworth, which she had of the gift of Beatrice de Hoo, her [grand/god]mother.

Witnesses: William Legat, William de Holewell, Nicholas Legat, William de Hoo, John de Northwode. 9 September 1330.

Edmund de Perrers was deceased before 12 July 1348, leaving a wife and at least one sister:

Quitclaim by Joan, formerly wife of Esmon de Perrers to Sir Walter de Manny of her right of dower in the manor of Knebworth.

Witnesses: Richard Lacer, Andrew Aubry, Robert de Shoreditch, John de Tyffeld, John de Wolpol, citizens of London. 12 July 1348.

Hey Ela's mother was a saint! (not really)

Katharine de Audley

www.medievalhistories.com/myths-of-medieval-anchoritism-and-the-rec...

Which grandchild was she trying to secure an inheritance for?

Also looks like she has a daughter too many

John de Audley, of Blore was the father of Petronella Audley. Which is a name that shows up in the Corbets. This fellow thinks it originated with the daughter of Ingenfulfus

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2015-10/...

This dude Sir James Audley, 2nd Baron Audley is out of place by at least 14 years - check his birth date vs. his "father's" death date.

GMTA I was just up to him.

Merging him into his nephew

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Audley,_2nd_Baron_Audley

James Audley, 2nd Baron Audley (8 January 1312/13 – 1 April 1386) of Heighley Castle, Staffordshire, was an English peer. He was the son and heir of Nicholas Audley, 1st Baron Audley (1289–1316) by his wife Joan FitzMartin (died Feb. 1320 / 1 Aug. 1322)[clarification needed], who was the daughter of William FitzMartin (died 1324), feudal baron of Barnstaple, Devon, and was posthumously the eventual sole heiress of her brother William FitzMartin (died 1326) to the feudal barony of Barnstaple

http://audley.one-name.net/wp-content/uploads/Familytreefiles/Famzn... page 8

Suggests John as son of William Audley and Clemence de Bore, married Peronella, Children William, Petronella and Hugh.

William was son of Henry Audley / de Aldithley d 1246

If Wikiipedia is correct then Blanche de Audley, Lady of Whittington is misplaced and Isabel le Strange, Baroness Audley is missing daughter Margaret who married Fulk FitzWarin