Sir Roger Corbet, Kt. - The Corbet Mess and the Visitations of Shropshire

Reposting this, refers to Peter of Leigh's father and wife. Will go look for Valletorte:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2002-12/...

Peter is the son of Thomas C. and his Valletorte wife. I also have only two Johns between Alice and Peter.

Alice was sister of Richard, who was son of John and this John was a son of yet another John. Peter d. 1300. His son John d. 1348.

Back in 1440 there's a Richard Corbet who is "kinsman and heir of John de Orreby" and holds lands in Hatherton - same one? Or an uncle or something?

Alice le Wafre?

I'm thinking now that the Hatherton Corbet's went there way earlier than the Alice / Elizabeth Brereton marriage. Hal Bradley's database link in her husband's profile

Looks as though Alice de Orreby was actually his *third* wife. I also hope she was born a *bit* earlier than 1260! (A mother at fourteen? Eeek!)

We've got trouble with Alice le Wafre?: birth date 1225, one child born c1256, another 1298(!) - this *does not compute*.

Yes, I ran away from that into my more direct line mistakes. :) there's a daughter Francis who married Corbet so just finished fixing her family as per

www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/francis-s...

Trees quoting Richardson got the wife wrong, don't know if Richardson did.

I'm get tin inconsistent lists of who was baron of Caus and when.General agreement on Roger FitzCorbet being the first (he's named in Domesday), but different people give different lists of succession thereafter.

Yes! I saw that! Does FMG have it, and if so, follow them for now?

I misspoke above, it's a couple gens down before Francis / Fraunceys intersects Corbet. I got annoyed that Isabel Francis was given false parents, and wondering if they can be found because she was locked and loaded for manors.

I don't seen the Brumpton line on Geni which is too bad, they were in an entertaining melee. Maybe I can find a good roots web to smart copy in.

"Roger and Robert were said by Le Carpentier to be the second and fourth sons of Corbet." If they followed tradition, the eldest son inherited the father's French lands (and so had no reason to cross the Channel). Third son unaccounted-for (priest?).

Eyton's chart

https://books.google.com/books?id=E75CAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA40&ots...

https://books.google.com/books?id=E75CAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA40&ots...

Refers to Sheriffs of Staffordshire for ancestry ? Footnote 7

FMG doesn't bother with mere barons, and has trouble tracing the various lineages. He's definite that the sons of Roger FitzCorbet were 1) William (-after 1166), 2) Everard, and (maybe) 3) Simon, although the possibility is noted that Simon may be son of Everard and *grandson* of Roger.

Robert ((-after 1124, Roger's brother) is noted with two wives, neither one known, and child 1) Sybil ([1090/95]-after 1157) (mistress of Henry I, like every female the King got anywhere near), then m. Herbert FitzHerbert; 2) Robert (II) (-after Jul 1141), who may have hiked up to Cumberland and so to Scotland in service to King David (previously Earl of Cumberland); 3) Alice, m. William Boterel. Robert jr did not inherit, either because he died or because he could not be bothered to schlep back to Shropshire.

Next Corbets reported are brothers Roger (II) (-[1162]), m. Hawise somebody, and Simon (-before [1162], wife unknown). Roger is thought to have died childless; Simon managed a son Robert III but may have predeceased his brother - at all events Simon's son Robert (III) inherited and kept the line going.
Robert III (before [1158]-[22 Jul 1219/17 Oct 1222]) m. (unknown) and had 4 children:
1) Thomas (-before 2 Nov 1274), who m. Isabel de Valletort (widow of Alan de Dunstanville, daughter of Roger de Vautort of Harberton, Devon - no children from first marriage)
2) Hugh
3) Robert (IV)
4) Mary/Margaret (-after 15 Apr 1231), m. our old friend Gwenwynwyn of Powys - most sources call her Margaret, so I don't know where "Mary" comes from.

Getting back to Thomas (I), he and Isabel had three (documented) children: 1) Piers I (alias Peter, (-1300 before 10 Aug)), specifically named as "of Caus"; 2) Alice, m. Robert de Stafford (which eventually gave Caus Castle to the Staffords), 3) Emma, m. Brian de Brampton.

Piers/Peter m. 1) Joan de Mortimer, 2) Alice unknown.
Two sons by Joan: 1) Thomas (II) (-before 11 Nov 1295), heir, m. Joan Plugenet but died childless; 2) Piers/Peter (II) of whom more in a bit.
Two (known) children by Alice: 3) John (25 Mar 1298-before 1347), 4) Alice m. John de Harcourt.

Piers II ([1269/70]-before 29 Jan 1322) married Beatrice de Beauchamp (-before Oct 1347), and named a John Corbet as heir to the manor of Bynweston, but it isn't clear whether this is his son, his half-brother, or some other John Corbet. What IS known is that as of October 1347 Caus Castle was in Stafford hands and the Corbet barony of Caus was extinct.

There's a ragged tag-end at the bottom:

The chronology suggests that Thomas Corbet, shown below, was the son of either Hugh Corbet or Robert [IV] Corbet who are shown above or was descended from an earlier younger branch of the family.

1. THOMAS Corbet (-before 18 Jul 1247). A writ dated 18 Jul "31 Hen III", after the death of "Thomas Corbet of Tasselegh" names "Roger his son aged 25 is his heir" and "Bromleg manor" in Staffordshire[2838]. m ---. The name of Thomas’s wife is not known. Thomas & his wife had one child:

a) ROGER Corbet ([1221/22]-before 7 May 1259). A writ dated 18 Jul "31 Hen III", after the death of "Thomas Corbet of Tasselegh" names "Roger his son aged 25 is his heir" and "Bromleg manor" in Staffordshire[2839]. A writ dated 7 May "43 Hen III", after the death of "Roger Corbet" names "his heir…Thomas…aged 11 on the eve of the Exaltation of the Cross next" and Bromley manor in Staffordshire[2840]. m ---. The name of Roger’s wife is not known. Roger & his wife had one child:

i) THOMAS Corbet (13 Sep 1248-before 10 May 1300). A writ dated 7 May "43 Hen III", after the death of "Roger Corbet" names "his heir…Thomas…aged 11 on the eve of the Exaltation of the Cross next" and Bromley manor in Staffordshire[2841]. Inquisitions dated "10 May 28 Edw I", following the death of "Thomas Corbet of Tasseleye", name “Roger Corbet his son, aged 27 at the feast of St. Michael last, is his next heir”[2842]. m ---. The name of Thomas’s wife is not known. Thomas & his wife had one child:

(1) ROGER Corbet ([1272/73]-). Inquisitions dated "10 May 28 Edw I", following the death of "Thomas Corbet of Tasseleye", name “Roger Corbet his son, aged 27 at the feast of St. Michael last, is his next heir”[2843].

Eyton says Leigh diverged from Moreton Corbet about 1222 and to know which exact person is the work of Magicians, not Antiquaries

https://archive.org/stream/antiquitiesshro03eytogoog#page/n49/mode/2up

Eyton matches pretty well to FMG, and let's not talk about the Visitations.:-P"""

I got his chart uploaded here right side up

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000066609946883&

If anyone wants to tag it. I'll take Eyton's charting over anyohe's as long as I don't have to read his excrutiatingly long arguments.

Oh yeah, how he does go on! :-D But sometimes that much detail is actually helpful (e.g. when you're struggling with one of the more obscure families that the Visitations made total hash of).

(Erica) I take Eyton's comment to mean that there were probably younger sons etc who didn't get documented or whose documentation has been lost.

I think the FMG peter > Thomas > John are different from Eyton Peter, Thomas, John of Leigh, a different group, not errors, except the Valletourt wife in common ?

I can confirm that FMG and Eyton are correct for the children of Sir Thomas Corbet, 5th Baron of Caus

Thomas Corbet had issue Peter, Alice the elder daughter, and Emma the younger daughter

When Peter's 3 sons died without heirs the co-heirs were the descendants of his two sister's Alice and Emma. This is confirmed in the IPM for Beatrice wife of Peter Corbet (son of Peter) in 1347.

Thomas Corbet Sheriff of Shropshire currently has 15 children assigned to him.

Common-law succession at that time was male-preference primogeniture. If Thomas had any other son's the next eldest living son would have inherited instead of his daughters Alice and Emma. Any surviving daughters inherited equally as co-heirs.

This means that all the other children currently assigned to Thomas are incorrect unless they died before their father and are documented as such.

Some culling needs to be done.

15 kids, maybe he became a placeholder to hang "don't know who you are?" :)

I just peeled Sir Robert Francis, of Foremark, MP of the Lord Mayor of London family, if anyone can find his actual parents

Or else there's two (or more) Thomas Corbets...Eyton wasn't able to solve the mystery of all the branches. If any other Thomas (not married to a Valletort) was from a line that branched off fairly early (say, second or third generation), he wouldn't have been in line for the barony anyway.

Titled estates *must* have direct-line male heirs, or they go into abeyance (or even extinct). Perfect type-case in Fairfax of Cameron: 6th and 7th Barons Cameron died without issue, and a collateral relative had to put up a legal argument to become 8th Baron - but he only held the title two years, and he and his family lived in America, so it wasn't at all convenient to do anything with it and everyone gradually forgot about it. The guy who "should" have been 10th Baron didn't want anything to do with it (he had moved out to California and was a dedicated democrat thank you very much), and it wasn't until the early 20th century that researchers turned up an heir who not only was in direct male line, he wanted it enough to move to the UK and become a British subject. (His descendants still hold the title.)

6th Baron Cameron = the Lord Thomas Fairfax who gave George Washington his first real serious job (surveying the Fairfax land grant).

Extracted the following from Eyton's natterings:

Corbet of Wattlesborough and Moreton

1. Richard (temp. Henry II, fl. c. 1180 (adult)-bef. 1225) had younger brother Roger. Not brother of baron Robert, so probably 1st or 2nd cousin.

2. Richard son of Richard m. daughter of Bartholomew (Turet) de Morton. Son Roger (did not inherit), son Robert (q.v. below).

3. Robert son of Richard, of full age 1225. Possible younger brother Richard. Wife Ida (aha, here's Ida! Documentation from Fine Rolls); 2nd wife Matilda de Arundel. D. bef. 14 Nov 1300.

4. Other Thomas! son of Robert and Matilda, died before age 30, 1310.

5) Robert (II) Corbet, son of Thomas, born Dec 25, 1304, inherited as a minor (line to be continued under Moreton Corbet).

http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/corbett/1053/

I posted this before. I don't know what his sources are, but you can email him. I'd cut and paste it in but it's way too long.

Many of the Corbet families.

I bet he used the Visitations. That would account for the *moronic* error of making Sir William Mallory of Papworth Margaret's "first" husband (he was her *second*, *after* Robert).

Definitely looks as though there's at least one son missing in the first, second and/or third generation.

Too bad because he has a stake in this and is more local, oh well.

Robert Corbet For misplaced Corbet's. please detach from ? when the correct parents are found

What a web these Corbet's are!

There were several contemporaries with the same name Thomas, Roger and Robert, very easy to get them confused.

From what I've found, most of these Corbet's failed in the senior male line. They "daughtered out" or didn't have any heirs. The Corbet's of Moreton got around this though. They entailed most of their estates enabling two younger sons to get the bulk of them effectively disinheriting the female heir of the eldest son.