Sir Roger Corbet, Kt. - The Corbet Mess and the Visitations of Shropshire

Hatte - https://www.geni.com/path/Hatte-Blejer+is+related+to+Robert-Corbett...

Here's the Y-DNA project on ftDNA results page

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Corbett?iframe=yresults

Four different lineal groups, and a lot of scattershot. Interesting that the one dude who claims descent from the Corbets of Normandy is a type G - but who knows if that's authentic or not?

I think I need to break parent connection to parents currently shown for Massachusetts Corbett. No proof and plenty of other candidate Corbett's.

Summarizing from http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/corbettonenamestudy/First/People/robert.htm

Ann Mainwaring had something like 17 children including a son Robert baptized at Adderly in 1640, no further record, which usually means "died young" as we know.

What is interesting is this family were (mostly) Cromwell supporters and Miles Corbet was one of the judges (I think), giving plenty of motive to send a child to the Colonies. And Augusta points out that the head of the family in the next generation was a Royalist, giving a motivation for a youngest child to move on.

The social & financial picture doesn't rule him out either, he was not an indentured servant and married into a classy family (Rockwell).

But I'm not feeling it and see no percentage in retaining the speculation.

Impressive Wikipedia page with a family chart

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_John_Corbet,_1st_Baronet,_of_Stok...

I notice yet another Jane Kynaston

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/corbettonenamestudy/First/People/pelham.htm

Extracting from the pedigrees a couple of points of interest

PELHAM CORBET'S LINEAGE

7 Roger (Sir) Corbet of Holage+Titheringtn #3810 b. bef 1224 d. 1289 La Bertune,near Bristol, GLS (Barton) m. cir 1250? Nesta de Vale #3825 

8 Roger (Sir) Corbet of Leigh juxta Caus #3857 b. cir 1282? d. cir 1348 m. Elizabeth of Leigh juxta Caus #36813 m. bef 1300? Amice de Camaville of Sibbeston,LEI #3855 

9 Roger (Sir) Corbet of Leigh & Hampton #2954 b. cir 1352? m. abt 1380? Beatrice #2995 

10 Thomas Corbet of Leigh & Hampton #2996 b. cir 1388? d. 1424 (AEC)  m. cir 1414? (  Jane Beverley/Burley of Brownhill,SAL #2997 

11 Peter Corbet of Leigh juxta Caus #2998 b. cir 1420? m. cir 1450? Elizabeth Brereton of Brereton #3001 

12 Thomas Corbet of Leigh juxta Caus #3002 b. cir 1452? m. Jane Kynaston #3022 

ANNA CORBET'S LINEAGE

10 Robert (Sir) Corbet of Moreton Corbet #2570 b. 25 Dec 1304 d. 3 Dec 1375  m. by March 1323 Elizabeth le Strange #2571 b. bef 1324 d. Nov 1381 

11 Roger (Sir) Corbet of Moreton Corbett #2573 b. abt 1330? d. Jan 1394-5 (VIS.of SAL 1623)  m. by 1383 Margaret de Erdington of Shawbury #2587 b. 1353 d. 14 Nov 1395 (42y) 

12 Robert (Sir) Corbet of Moreton Corbet #2588 b. 8 Dec 1383 St Bartholomew's, Moreton Corbet,SAL d. Jan 1438 in father's lifetime m. cir 1403 Margaret Mallory of Shawbury,SAL #2589 b. circa 1397 d. 26 Jan 1438 [Weis 6A-34;Cockayne, CP, 12:2:842-46] 

13 Roger (Sir) Corbet of Moreton Corbet #2590 b. abt 1406? d. 8 Jun 1467 m. abt 1425? Elizabeth Hopton #2591 b. abt 1427 d. 22 Jun 1498 

THIS is the single biggest foul-up in the Corbet line in the Visitations:

"12 Robert (Sir) Corbet of Moreton Corbet #2588 b. 8 Dec 1383 St Bartholomew's, Moreton Corbet,SAL d. Jan 1438 in father's lifetime m. cir 1403 Margaret Mallory of Shawbury,SAL #2589 b. circa 1397 d. 26 Jan 1438 [Weis 6A-34;Cockayne, CP, 12:2:842-46] "

Birth date *may* be correct, everything else is WRONG WRONG WRONG.

1) He died in 1420, not 1438 - noted in legal records *because he was High Sheriff of Shropshire at the time*.

2) His parents had been dead since 1395-96 (some uncertainty about exact date and which one went first). There are legal records of his guardianship and how it was passed around, ending up with John Burley of Bromcroft (MP). (There are also legal records of his younger brother Roger, who was completely forgotten about by the following century. Burley wound up with both boys.)

3) Marriage date is a guesstimate but cannot have been much after 1400, when Burley purchased the right to arrange it.

4) Margaret - hoo boy, Margaret! She was NOT a Mallory by birth, and was probably a Burley (see point #3), most likely Burley's own daughter, or if not that then a niece. She did not acquire the Mallory name *until she married Sir William Mallory of Papworth St. Agnes*, after Robert Corbet died.

Generations upon generations of genealogists have been led up the garden path by this one howling error in the Visitations, cobbling up fictitious "Sir William Mallorys" for Margaret to be the "daughter" of, and even stretching credibility to the breaking point trying to connect her to the Yorkshire Mallorys. (Sir William of Papworth had Shropshire properties and connections, which is probably how he met her.)

What's really shocking is that it took research from the MALLORY side to disentangle all this, and it might never have happened if Thomas Mallory of Papworth St. Agnes (Sir William and Margaret's son, possibly but not certainly the only child they had) hadn't been picked by late 19th-early 20th century scholars as a plausible candidate for authorship of the Morte D'Arthur!

He was certainly more to their stodgy taste than the scandalous Sir Thomas Malory of Newbold Revel! :-D

Quick quick quick Cadair is back up.

Am on iPhone can't post much.

Bartrum links one page back.

Robert Corbet of Moreton was born at Moreton Corbet on 8 Dec. 1383 (see his proof of age via the source tab)

He married Margaret whose ancestry is unknown.

He died 12 Aug. 1420. Thomas Corbet was his son and next heir, aged 10 years and more. (see his IPMs via the source tab)

I'm still adding documents for various branches.

I'm giving a talk tomorrow and have to focus on that -- when I can refocus on Geni (maybe soon, if I can pull all this stuff together) what I will do is work from the Welsh side, and see how things line up.

Forgot to mention Robert Corbet was not knighted. He was styled Esquire at his death.

I am throwing a party for my daughter and cleaning out my mother's house so wii be scarcecfor s few days.

Added curator note to Robert Corbet, Lord of Moreton, MP, Sheriff of Shropshire

"Son of Sir Roger Corbet & Margaret. Married Margaret, who married Sir William Mallory 2nd. Two sons, Thomas (died without heirs) and Roger, plus perhaps as many as three daughters."

This means Weber's database has incorrect parents for Peter Corbet who married Alice / Elizabeth Brereton and he is not their son.  Will move and merge.

All righty!

I've got my presentation (I'm a New Mexican History Scholar!) together, and Cadair is up -- so I'm putting in the Welsh Corbet lines and will let you know when I hit differences.

As, for instance, this:

John Corbet, MP

A John Corbet appears in the Welsh tree at this point, but is given no wives and no children. I'm assuming that the Welsh don't care, and that's why they aren't there.

here's the page -- http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/6360/CORBET%2...

Now Robert of Hatherton Corbet doesnt reconcile as child of Peter Corbet and Alice / Elizabeth. His brother married Jane Kynaston (on Bartrum as son of Peter Corbet)

Robert Scriven appears in Bartrum's genealogies -- same link as above -- married to an Alice Corbet -- the tree at the moment has him married to two different Alice Corbets.

Robert Scriven of Frodesley

Bartrum's Alice is the daughter of Thomas Corbet and Jane Beverly.

This Robert Corbet does not appear in the Welsh genealogies at all, but again may simply be of no importance to them:

Robert of Hatherton Corbet

Looks like Kay Allen (soc.gen.med) validates Robert who married Cecilia

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/Bj...

She looks to be "the person" for Corbet's, she had Thomas as father of Peter, which reconciles with Bartrum & Augusta

As mentioned above (but I'm trying to get all this stuff together in one place)

this Peter Corbet appears in the Welsh genealogies, where he is the son of Roger and is given no wife.

Peter Corbet, of Leigh

he does have a sister, Jonet, married to Hywel ap Trahaearn.

Elizabeth appears in the Genealogies, but her name there is Angharad:

Angharad verch Cynwrig Sais

And Anghrad makes more sense, given that she's "verch Cynrig Sais."

This Peter Corbet appears in the Genealogies, where he is married to a Brereton, but his Brereton is named Joyce, not Elizabeth or Alice:

Peter Corbet, of Leigh

Oh, sorry, it's the second page of the Welsh Corbet Genealogies:
See Peter Bartrum, http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/6361/CORBET%2... (September 6, 2017; Anne Brannen, curator)

Yay Charlene! Nothing *but* primary documentation is going to resolve some of these problems!

(Anne) Let's hope we find some legal documents that give Peter Corbet of Leigh's wife's first name - and that they're consistent.

Ok!

Stopping here.

This Peter Corbet has different children than those that appear in Bartrum.

There, he has the children John , married to Jane verch Hywel and Gwenllian verch Thomas; Margred, married to Thomas Middleton; Elizabeth, married to Hywel ab Ieuan; Edmund of Worthen, married to Gwenllian verch Hywel Fychan; John Junior (no kidding); and Thomas, married to Jane Kynaston.

It looks like there are some mixing of generations going on --

I will go have a break and do something else, and come back to this when I'm fresh.

Not the only example of two Johns in the same generation in the same family - remember Bishop John White and Sir John White, the London brothers who at one point got mashed together and had to be re-sorted?

I'm telling you, Peter is the problem. He should have Hatherton property from his Brereton wife? But I'm not seeing him here, I'm seeing a Richard who married Cecilia? ...

Robert Corbets of Hatherton in Cheshire, not sure which refers to who

https://books.google.com/books?id=sPsUAAAAQAAJ&lpg=RA1-PA291&am...

THE THIRTY-SIXTH ANNUAL REPORT OF THE DEPUTY KEEPER OF THE PUBLIC RECORDS page 166

No. 1.—Welsh Records: Recognizance Rolls of Chester

Corbet

1477, Robert, livery, setting forth the finding of au Inquisition p.m., viz., that June 17. Cecilia, who was the wife of Richard Corbet, died seized, in dower, of the inheritance of Robert Corbet, of 100s. annual rent in Chirehcopuall, parcel of the manor of ChireheopnaIl,of the assignment of Roger Corbet, father of the said Robert, the remainder thereof pertaining to the said Robert, then living, as heir male of the said Richard, viz., son and heir of the said Roger son of John father of the said Richard, because the said Richard died without heirs male of his body; that the said manor of Chirchcopnall was held of the Earl of Chester, by the service of a fourth part of one knight's fee, yearly value 100s.; that the said Cecilia also died seized, in dower, of the inheritance of William Brereton, Kt., then living, of eighty acres of laud and ten acres of meadow, parcel of the manor of Foukestapleford, of the assignment of William Brcreton, Kt., father of the aforesaid William, and Alice, his wife, sister, and heir of the aforesaid Richard Corbet; that the reversion of the said premises pertained to the said William Brereton, Kt., then living, and his heirs as kin-man and heir of the said Richard Corbet, viz., son of the said Cecilia, sister and heir of the said Richard Corbet; that the said eighty acres of land and ten acres of meadow, were held of the Earl of Chester, by the fourth part of one knight's fee, and were of the yearly value of 4/.; that the said Cecilia died on Sunday next before the Feast of Saint George the Martyr " last" past. [16 & 17 Edw. 4. M. 9 d. (1).]
1487, Robert son and heir of Robert, writ of livery setting forth the finding of an Oct. 22. inquisition, viz., that Robert Corbet died seized of the manor of Walgher ton, held of the Earl of Chester by the 4tli part of a knight's fee, yearly value 20 marks 3s. Ad.; that the said Robert died on the 5th Oct. last, and that Robert Corbet was his son and heir, and of the age of 30. [3 & 4 Hen. 7. m. 1 (4).]

1489, Robert, John Mynshull, Thomas Gerard, of Crewod, William Venables, April 28. of Kynderton, and Thomas Wodehouse, to the King, recognizance for 40/. that the said Robert keep the peace towards Richard Kerdieff. [4 & 5 Hen. 7. m. 7 d. (1).]

1489. Robert, of Hatherton, appointment of, as collector of a subsidy; see Wich-Malhank hundred.

1508. Robert, messuages and land in Hatherton, held of; see Birkenhead, John.

From what we now know, the Visitations of Shropshire *cannot* be trusted earlier than parish records - possibly to 1500, but beyond that everything is suspect and must be double- and triple-checked.

Bartrum and the Welsh genealogies are of use as a cross-check only where they intersect with English families on the border, and they have their own set of problems.

Best of all is whatever can be found in the way of primary documentation (land records, charters, fines, marriage agreements, wills, IPMs, etc.).