Sir Roger Corbet, Kt. - The Corbet Mess and the Visitations of Shropshire

/https://books.google.com/books?id=kjme027UeagC&lpg=RA2-PA301&am...

Looks like Maud Mohun gets the manors of Dalby (Fulk de Orreby's mother was the heiress of Dalby) and Foulk-Stapleford conveyed from Henry de Percy, Earl of Northumberland

Maud Hauberk

She's missing a few husbands.

.... And her mother was extraordinary

https://books.google.com/books?id=1McFDAAAQBAJ&lpg=PA309&ot...

Motherhood, Religion, and Society in Medieval Europe, 400–1400: Essays ... By Lesley Smith. Mother or stepmother to history ?

So how did Northumberland end up with the Orreby property to transmit to Lady Mohun?

Mary de Roos

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol17/pp196-209

John de Orreby, knight, being seised in his demesne as of fee of the under-mentioned manor, gave it by his charter to Thomas de Synythwayt, parson of the church of Hawkeswell, William Synythwayt, knight, and Richard, parson of the church of Candelsby, who by their charter gave it to the said John de Orreby and Margaret his wife, to them and the heirs of their bodies, with remainder to Adam de Clifton, knight, and Robert Barnak, and Edward III by his letters patent pardoned and confirmed the gift. John de Orreby and Margaret had issue Joan, who was married to Henry lord de Percy and had issue Mary, who was the wife of John de Roos of Hamelake, knight. John de Orreby died and Joan died in her mother’s lifetime and Mary entered as daughter and heir of Joan and died without heir of her body. Adam de Clifton died long before Robert Barnak, who died without heir of his body; Maud, now wife of Ralph de Cromwell, lord of Tateshale, is his heir, to wit, daughter of John Barnak, brother of the said Robert, and is aged 40 years and more.
Dronfeld. The manor, held of the king in chief, service unknown.
She died at York on 25 August last.
516

Mary de Roos

Her heir must have been Henry Percy, 1st Earl of Northumberland

Re: So how did Northumberland end up with the Orreby property to transmit to Lady Mohun?

From Mary de Roos Lincoln IPM: By her charter dated 30 July, 18 Richard II [1394], she enfeoffed Henry de Percy, earl of Northumberland, and others (as above, Cambridge inquisition) of the under-mentioned manors of Dalby and Toft.

enfeoff: (under the feudal system) give (someone) freehold property or land in exchange for their pledged service.

The manor of Dronfeld in Derby went to Maud, then the wife of Ralph de Cromwell, lord of Tateshale in accordance with the charter mentioned in that IPM.

More document's found in the Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records v.37 1876 Welsh Records: Recognizance Rolls of Chester

1440. Richard, kinsman and heir of John de Orreby, land in Hatherton called
"Dogcrofte," held of; see Massey, Richard de, del Hugh.

1477 June 4., Cecilia, who was the wife of Richard, writ " diem clausit extremum" on
the death of. [16 & 17 Edw. 4. m. 3 d. (4).]

1477 June 17., Robert, livery, setting forth the finding of an Inquisition p.m., viz., that
Cecilia, who was the wife of Richard Corbet, died seized, in dower, of the
inheritance of Robert Corbet, of 100s. annual rent in Chirchcopnall,
parcelofthe manor of Chirchcopnall,of the assignment of Roger Corbet,
father of the said Robert, the remainder thereof pertaining to the
said Robert, then living, as heir male of the said Richard, viz., son
and heir of the said Roger son of John father of the said Richard,
because the said Richard died without heirs male of his body; that
the said manor of Chirchcopnall was held of the Earl of Chester,
by the service of a fourth part of one knight's fee, yearly value 100s.;
that the said Cecilia also died seized, in dower, of the inheritance of
William Brereton, Kt., then living, of eighty acres of laud and ten acres
of meadow, parcel of the manor of Foukestaplcford, of the assignment
of William Brereton, Kt., father of the aforesaid William, and Alice,
his wife, sister, and heir of the aforesaid Richard Corhet; that the
reversion of the said premises pertained to the said William Brereton,
Kt., then living, and his heirs as kinsman and heir of the said Richard
Corbet, viz., son of the said Cecilia [Alice]**, sister and heir of the said Richard
Corbet; that the said eighty acres of land and ten acres of meadow,
were held of the Earl of Chester, by the fourth part of one knight's
fee, and were of the yearly value of 4/.; that the said Cecilia died on
Sunday next before the Feast of Saint George the Martyr " last" past [20 April 1477].
[16 & 17 Edw. 4. ro. 9 d. (1).]

**Cecilia is an error. Alice was Richard Corbet's sister and heir.

In the Annual Report of the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records v.39 1878 Welsh Records: Recognizance Rolls of Chester
https://archive.org/stream/report184019083918grea#page/33/mode/1up

We have the entire family descent laid out:

1581 April 8., William, inspeximus and exemplification at the instance of, of an extent
and valuation of the manors of Walgherton, Hatherton, Churche-
copenhale, and Fowkestapleforde, 9 Sept., 5 Hen. 4. ; also of an
inquisition, 5 Hen. 4., finding that Maria, who was the wife of John
de Roos, of Hameloke, died seized of the manors of Walgherton,
Hatherton, and Chirchecopenhale, by virtue of a fine, 19 Edw. 2.,
between John de Orrebie and Joan his wife, pits., and Hugh de
Wybunbury, chaplain, dft,, by which the said Hugh granted to the
aforesaid John and Joan the said manors, in fee-tail, with successive
remainders, viz., to John son of Philip de Orreby and the heirs of
his body, and them failing, to John Corbett and the heirs male of
his body, and them failing, to the right heirs of the said John de
Orrebie ; that on the death of the said John and Joan the said manors’
descended successively to the said John son of Philip, Joan his
daughter and heir, and the said Maria daughter and heir of the
said Joan, who died without heirs, after whose death the said manors
should descend to Richard as kinsman and heir of the said John
Corbett, viz., son of John son of John son of the said John Corbett;
that the said Richard was kinsman and heir of the said John de
Orreby, viz., son of John son of John son of John son of Alice
sister of the said John de Orrebye, father. of the said Philip; also
that the said Maria died seized in her demesne, as of fee. of the
manor of Foukestapulford, which should descend to the said Richard
as her kinsman and heir, viz., son of John son of John son of John
son of Alice sister of the said John de , father of Philip
father of John father of Joan mother of the said Maria; that the
said manors of Walgherton, Hatherton, and Churche-Copenhale
■were held of the Earl of Chester, in capite, by knight’s service, and
were of the respective yearly values of 100s., 10/., and 100s. ; that
the manor of Eowkestapilford was of the yearly value of 8l. ; that
the said Maria died 25 August, 18 Ric. 2. ; and that the said Richard
Corbett was of the age of sixteen ; also of an inquisition, 10 Hen. 4.,
finding that Richard Corbett, of Leighton, died seized in his demesne,
as of fee-tail, of the manor of Walgherton, held of the Earl of Chester,
in capite, by knight’s service, yearly value 100s. ; of the manor of
Hatherton, held as above, yearly value 10/. ; and of the manor of
Churchecopenhale, held as above, yearly value 100s. ; also that he
died seized in his demesne, as of fee-simple, of the manor of Fowke-
stapelforde, held as above, yearly value 16/.; that the said Richard
died a minor on the Saturday next after the Feast of the Apostles
Simon and Jude, 9 Hen. 4. ; that Richard Corbett, of Leighton, was
kinsman and heir of the said Richard, and of the age of thirty-one
or more, viz., son of John son of John Corbett, Kt., great-grandfather
of the said Richard Corbett, and that Alice wife of William de Brere-
ton, junior, and sister of the said Richard Corbett, of Leighton, was
next heir to the manor of Fowkcstapleford, and of the age of nineteen
or more ; also of an inquisition p. m., 37 Hen. 6., [set forth in writ
of livery to William Brereton, 11 June 1458,] on the death of Alicia
wife of John Streteley ; also of an inquisition, 17 Edw. 4., finding
that Cecilia, who was the wife of Richard Corbett, died seized in
dower of the inheritance of Robert Corbett, of 100s rent in Churche-
Copnall, of the assignment of Roger Corbett, father of the said
Robert, the reversion whereof pertained to the said Robert, as kins-
man and heir of Richard Corbett, viz., son of Roger son of John
father of the said Richard, because the said Richard died without
heirs male ; also that the Cecilia died seized, in dower, of the
inheritance of William Brereton, Kt., of twenty-four acres of land
and ten acres of meadow, parcel of the manor of Fowkestapleforde, of
the grant of one William Brereton, father of the said Wiliam, and
of Alice his wife, sister and heir of the said Richard Corbett ; that
the reversion thereof pertained to the said William Brereton, Kt., as
kinsman and general heir of the aforesaid Richard Corbett, viz., son of
Alice sister and heir of the said Richard Corbett ; that the said lands
were held of the Earl of Chester, by the fourth part of a knight’s fee,
and were of the yearly value of 4/. ; that the said Cecilia died on
Sunday next before the Feast of St. George the Martyr “ last ” past
[age and next heir blank]. [22 & 23 Eliz. m. 6.]

Oh geez, I hope you can follow all of that.

Do we have "John Corbett, Kt., great-grandfather
of the said Richard Corbett" correct? Was this John Corbet of Dinweston, parents unidentified p?

So Fowkestapleforde [SIC] is the key.

Here's Fulk Stapelford in Omerod, maybe a little easier for me to follow.

https://books.google.com/books?id=dIY1AQAAMAAJ&lpg=RA1-PA803&am...

But now I'm not understanding how Fulk Stapleford could have settled the way it did unless

Orreby > daughter > Corbet son > (3 gens ?) > daughter married Brereton > Bruen (by exchange)

Therefore wouldn't in fact John the last baron have had issue?

Disconnected Joan Darras as wife of John Corbet of Binweston & Leighton and her locations must be incorrect - she was born of Moreton Corbet I would think

According to the chart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corbet_family this Joan Corbet was the wife of Robert de Harley and John Darras.

I can follow most of it and I can use a regnal calendar to work out the regnal years. eg 25 August, 18 Ric. 2. is the year 1394. The part that is confusing me is the relationship between the two Richard Corbets and I'm not sure who "John Corbett, Kt., great-grandfather" is.

Re: Therefore wouldn't in fact John the last baron have had issue?
According to the above descent, yes, but it is dated over 200 years later.

I am going to see if I can find a transcript or an abstract of the fine, 19 Edw. 2., [1325/6]

I think John last baron Corbet having issue after all may be the answer, I don't think there's another way to account for the Orresby inheritance. I'm adding the Ormerod page on Fulk Stapleford to the profiles mentioned.

----

Issues about Joan de Bestford

She was not the daugther of Joan Darras

She could have been the widow or daughter of the 1st Robert Harley. However a TAG article suggests Alexander de Bersford MP was not from the Worceshire Bersford's, in which case his mother is not known at all.

Looking at Augusta's chart which may be "off"

https://www.wikitree.com/photo.php/c/c7/Corbet-72.jpg

Sir William living 1251
Roger d 1289 m Nesta
John of Bynwedton & Leighton living 1390
John m Joan
Peter m Alice d'Orreby
John succeeded to the d'Orreby lands
Richard dsp 1404 line extinct
His sister Alice m Sir William Brereton of Brereton

It's very unusual to overlook John Corbet's son in favour of female heirs. It goes against the rules of common law inheritance. We certainly don't know the full story and probably never will.

I have found the following which throws doubt on the accuracy of the Orreby pedigree.

In 1394 Mary Lady Roos heir of the manors of Walgherton, Hatherton, and Church Coppenhall was Sir William Bagot, Kt., MP

Bagot—Bagop—cont.
1394 Nov. 6., William, Kt., livery to, of the manors of Walgherton, Hatherton, and Church Coppenhall, held of the Earl of Chester by knight's service, yearly value 20/., and of the manor of Stapleford-Fulke held as above, yearly value 16/.; on an inquisition finding that Hugh de Wybunbury, chaplain, by fine [19 Edw. 2.] passed the said manors to John de Orreby, and Joan his wife, and their issue, with successive remainders to John their son and heir, Joan his daughter, and Mary who was the wife of John de Roos, and daughter and heiress of the said Joan, that the said Mary died without issue, when the manors aforesaid descended to the said William as her kinsman and heir, viz., son of Joan daughter of Matilda daughter of Joan daughter of John son of Philip; that the said Mary died seized also in fee simple of the manor of Stapleford-Fulke to which the said William was heir, as son of Joan, daughter of Matilda, daughter of Joan daughter of John son of Philip brother of John father of Joan mother of the said Mary, and that the said William was 40 years of age or more. [18 & 19 Ric. 2. m. 1 (1), (3).]

William Bagot's HOP bio states this:

"He also built up his landed interests in Cheshire, where he bought property at Nantwich, Hurleston and Acton. In 1394, he made a successful claim (based on an erroneous pedigree asserting that his mother was a descendant of Sir John Orreby) to four manors in the same county (worth £36 a year), of which, however, he lost possession before his death."

I read somewhere that Augusta's chart was incorrect. There is more than one error in it.

FMG doesn't identify John last baron's mother beyond Alice, and Tim Powys has the Alice le Wafre name for her. I think we shoud take this Aiice off Orreby and see if she really married Sir Humphrey de Beauchamp

And I'll try the chart for the Binweston with corrections based on Ormerod. Eynton doesn't follow the thread to Cheshire, and Orreby is a Cheshire family.

But I'll bet that the Bagot tried to attach himself to the grander Moreton Corbets by placing Alice d'Orreby as Peter's wife when she was really a John Corbet's wife.

The Orreby pedigree in the visitation of Cheshire in the year 1580 is not detailed enough to help us.
https://archive.org/stream/visitationofches00glov#page/188/mode/2up

Sir John de Orreby, K.B. now has two sister's named Alice ??

I just disconnected Alice le Wafre? from parents. :).

Okay sorry, I see what you are doing. You work faster than me. I like to mull over things first.

I've been mulling for a while! Since I saw the Hal Bradley query Kay Allen answered, way too cryptically, on soc.gen.med

Hal was explaining the generation issues in Augusta, Kay agreed and said she had two John's and then a Thomas. Which also doesnt work but ...

Alice mother of the last baron didn't marry Piers / Peter until 1295 or so, and had license to re marry in 1314. She's a younger woman IMO than had been presented.

The Ormerod chart seems to be accurate for the Corbet descent from Orreby and matches the documentation we have found but then gets's Mary Lady Roos ancestry wrong lol.
https://archive.org/stream/historyofcountyp03orme#page/290/mode/2up

Let's blame it on the tavern dwelling Shropshire heralds.

I can picture it lol.

I wonder if the drunken Cheshire Herald inserted an extra Philip de Orreby generation. Seems too many gens from Fulke Chief Justice to Mary de Roos. Get out the regnal year calculator !

I can't believe the answer is so simple to the Corbet "mystery.". Just a mixup in Peter Corbet's, like we hadn't noticed that before. (rolls eyes)

Okay, so you think Alice and Peter Corbet of Leighton are different people to Alice and Peter Corbet, Baron of Caus. That makes sense and sorts the inheritance issue.

That's what I was missing.

Not to mention that Shropshire is not Cheshire. We have two different Peter + Alice = John Corbet families, major property disputes intra family for the King to profit from, and drunken heralds. What could go wrong ?

Augusta is the only one that got it! Mostly.

Mary de Roos had the wrong husband on Geni and the Cheshire herald calls him Robert. But the IPM says John. The fun never ends!

John de Roos, of Hamelake, Knt.