Sir Roger Corbet, Kt. - The Corbet Mess and the Visitations of Shropshire

Pursuing the Weston's uncovered a mixup between Sir John de Weston, of Weston-under-Lizard and Sir John de Weston, Knt.

Clarified because Charlene had recently (May) taken the trouble to retrieve the IPM for Margaret de Wigton

I think this is one a lot of sites had confused. They died in similar years and both had fathers named Hugh.

Is there any reason to believe this Agnes had two husbands?

Lady Agnes de Kyme

Hi Erica, I been busy with family the last couple of days so haven't had a chance to look in the Weston's. I've found the IPM's for Sir Thomas de Weston

He held land in Essex & Isle of Wight.

The following is from his IPM's:

He died on Saturday after the Translation of St. Thomas the Martyr last [12 July 1354].
His wife's name was Margery.
He had three daughters, his co-heirs; Eleanor, who survives, aged 26 years and more, married to John de Rattlesden, knight; Margaret, who is dead and has two daughters still surviving, one named Eleanor by John de Lovayne,, aged 10 years, the other Isabel/Elizabeth* by William de Wauton, aged 7 years; the third daughter, Isabel, is dead and has a son named Roger, aged 7 years.

*Isabel and Elizabeth were often used interchangeably. One IPM names her Isabel the other names her Elizabeth.

I will get this added as a source for Thomas de Weston later on. I won't be able to do much more until tonight or tomorrow.

That's very helpful & timely. The John de Weston d 1343 who married Margaret de Wigton was constable of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carisbrooke_Castle in Isle of Wight.

Looks like there is an Essex area Weston line distinct from the Staffordshire family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Manor

Milton Manor (also Middleton in the 13th century) is a manor house in the parish of Brading on the Isle of Wight, in England.

History[edit]
Milton was held with land in Adgestone, of the manor of Appleford for the service of half a knight's fee. The manor was given by Queen Eleanor in 1280 to John de Weston and Christina his wife. John died seised of it in 1323–4, when his son John succeeded.[1] On his death in 1344 the manor passed to his brother William, a clerk in holy orders. In 1346 Katherine de Weston held the manor, and in 1354 Thomas de Weston died seised of it, leaving as his heirs his daughter Eleanor wife of Sir John de Rattlesden, his granddaughters Eleanor and Isabel daughters of another daughter Margaret and his grandson Roger, son of another daughter Isabel.[1] The eldest co-heir Eleanor is perhaps to be identified with Eleanor wife of Sir William Bouchier, kt., who died seised of a quarter fee in Milton in 1397. Her heir was her son William, but John Haket was holding the estate at the end of the 14th century, and was returned for aid in 1428 as holding the de Weston half fee with Henry Howles, the latter being succeeded in the joint holding three years later by John Roucle or Rookley.[1]

www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol5/pp156-170#h3-0003

http://www.aspilogia.com/G-Segars_Roll/G-057-108.html

Coat of arms for a John de Westune d 1323 which looks very different from the Staffordshire family

http://www.aspilogia.com/G-Segars_Roll/img/093.png

Fishery dispute

http://www.iwhistory.org.uk/RM/bembridgeisle/history.htm

An Instrument of Accord concerning the Right of Fishery in Brading Haven. 6 Edw. II.
Next Monday after the feast of St. Hilaire in the year of the reign of King Edward son of King Edward, sixth [regnal year], this covenant is made between 'Sire Jean de Weston' the father knight of the one part, and 'Peres Devercy' knight, 'Johan the son 'Sire Robert de Glamorgan of the other part. This is to know that ...in the court of our Lord the king between the before-said 'Johan de Weston demandant'[plaintiff], and the before-said 'Sire Robert & Peres defendants', of those of the before-said 'Sire Robert & Peres defendants' disturbed & cleanly removed the said 'Sire Johan de Weston' from his fishery between 'le Groyne' of the white cliff and 'le Groyne de St. Elene' in the Isle of Wight; from his part of the benefit of the sea and of selling, giving, taking and carrying away, as affirmed in the third part of the three lordships, this is to know the third ... of the fishery, or the third part of two thirds or of one, if it be more, and the third part of the moiety of the 'chaunce de mer',...

Found another Petronilla - Petronilla Mortimer

Not Listed as a daughter of Piers Corbet, 1st Lord Caus, on FMG

Sybil Corbet

fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3.htm#_Toc389040813

Disconnected Anne Cambray

Is there evidence for parents of Alice le Wafre?

Later Cambray family associated with attempts to oust Hawys "the Hardy" from her inherited property on grounds she was a woman (they lost)

http://memory.loc.gov/master/gdc/scdser01/200401/books_on_film_proj...

So while we're on Audley, in sourcing Mortimers I ran across an alternate parentage proposed for Isolde de Audley of Hugh de Mortimer, Lord of Chelmhurst & Agatha de Mortimer

See http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jwebe...

I don't know that we can solve this but I "like" it better on geographic grounds

Here's the discussion in entirety.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2002-01/...

(And a good argument that had been pointed out by Justin that she wasn't a Mortimer at all - https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?fromgroups#!topic/soc.genealogy.... )

So this is all I have so far on Orreby and Baskerville into the Corbet family

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http://https://www.ancestry.com/boards/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=17...

Does anyone know if the following line is valid and proven?

1. Joan de Mortimer (desc. of King John), married as his first wife, about 1253, Peter Corbet, I Baron Corbet of Caus, who died before 13 Aug. 1300. He married, secondly, about 1295, Alice de Orreby.

2. Sibylla Corbet, married 1298 Sir William de Baskerville, Lord of Coombe, who died 1318.

This is consistent with the IPMs

From http://powys.org/pl_tree/ps19/ps19_258.html

Notes for Sir Piers Corbet Lord Corbet m. (1) Joan de Mortimer, (2) Alice le Wafre

His and Alice’s son John was the last baron of Cause, and who was b. 25 Mar 1148 and d. bef 1347. John’s heirs were his aunts Alice m. Robert de Stafford and Emma m. Sir Bryan de Brampton - see CP.

I've made a new profile and moved over descent.

John Corbet of Binweston & Leighton

Eyton couldn't place his parentage but is quite sure he's not the same as the last Baron Caus, died before 1347, as this possessor of Binweton was living in 1356.

https://books.google.com/books?id=6UtNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA39&lpg=...

... There was also a John Corbet, who by grant of Peter Corbet (II.) and his wife, Beatrix, had a grant of Binweston for the life of Beatrix. I greatly doubt whether this John of Binweston was identical with John, son of Peter (I.). Unfortunately it does not appear what was the status of Binweston on Beatrix Corbet's death in 1347 (Iaqnis. 21 Edw. III., No. 55); but there was a Sir John Corbet of Binweston living in 1356, and then proposing to settle that Manor (which was his only estate) on his son John, and on Joan, his son's wife, and their issue. (InquU. 30 Edw. III., 2nd Nos., No. 15.) ...

Looks like this line had been subject to Heraldic Games

From [https://books.google.com/books?id=Sdo4AQAAMAAJ&lpg=PA356&ot... page 356] of The Montgomeryshire Collections, Volume 27

>Alice Corbet, the heiress of the conjoint manors of Leighton and Binweston, by I nquisitio post mortem 0f the 10th of Henry IV, 1409,1 was found to be sister and heir of her deceased brother, Richard Corbet of Leighton. The Salop Heraldic Visitations2 make them fourth in descent from John Corbet of Leighton "the last rightful Baron of Caus, reduced to a position of comparative beggary by the legal artifices of his own kindred on the one hand, and by barefaced injustice on the other"

Time traveler, disconnected from parents

Lady Alice Winnesbury

So now I come up with Joan Darras as the wife of John Corbet of Binweston & unknown parents, who had a sister Isabel Pigot

We are now in Wales - ish, Private User

Can confirm Sir John Corbet, of Binweston was not the same person as John son of Peter (I.) Remember back a few pages in this discussion the son's of Peter (I.) all died without issue. The sister's of Peter (I.) became the co-heirs and their descendants inherited the estates.

John the youngest son of Peter (I) wasn't illegitimate or disinherited because he became heir to his brother Peter (II). Illegitimate children could not inherit.

The John Corbet, of Binweston, had issue, and his dates suggest he was of a younger generation of Corbet's.

Peter Corbet (II.) did grant and entail some estates to other Corbet's who were most likely relatives before his death. One was Roger Corbet (ancestor of the Corbet's of Leigh) who acquired land in Hemme (by entail) from Peter (II.).

Sybil Corbet needs to be disconnected as a daughter of Peter (I). If she really had been a daughter of Peter she would have been the next heir (or co-heir with other sisters) after the death of her three brothers who died without issue. If Sibella was deceased her eldest son would have inherited the estates. We already know Peter's two sisters become the next heirs instead.

Alice Harcourt seems to have been a daughter Peter (I) She must have died without issue before her brother John because she didn't become the next heir or co-heir either. FMG cites a manuscript relating to Ranton Priory stating she was a daughter of Peter (I).

Bob's Genealogy Filing Cabinet has a good article on Primogeniture & Succession
http://www.genfiles.com/articles/primogeniture-succession/

I can't seem to find a transcript of the Inquisition Post Mortem for Richard Corbet of Leighton only a mention of it.

Sibyl Corbet who married William Baskerville assigned incorrect parents here

Http://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p879.htm#i26399

Citing

Citations
[S8223] Unknown author, Some Early English Pedigrees, by Vernon M. Norr, p. 15; Families Directly Descended from all the Royal Families in Europe, by Elizabeth M. Rixford, p. 10; Wallop Family, p. 57.
[S11588] Some Early English Pedigrees, by Vernon M. Norr, p. 15.

our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com does contain errors and it's not a site I trust. I think they really have got things wrong there with that family. It does cite sources though so we can check what "Some Early English Pedigrees" say's with the hope that the source leads us back to an original document. I have my doubt's though.

I have doubled checked the half blood rules for succession too. Bob's article is a bit fuzzy on this.

"Collaterals of the ‘half blood' were excluded. This meant that if a tenant died seised without issue, but with a sister and a half-brother (i.e. sharing only the parent from whom the inheritance came), the sister although female would inherit. All of a person's children, though, were issue of the whole blood, so on the death of the father it was his eldest son even by a second marriage who was preferred to a daughter by his first marriage. Only once a descendant had inherited did the exclusion of the half blood operate."

Source: http://www.inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/contexts/the-law-of-inherit...

My understanding is even if Sybil was half-blood to her siblings she would have been considered whole blood of her father Peter and would have inherited instead of Peter's whole blood sister's.

From http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jwebe... (Jim Weber's database, which is pretty good, even when we end up differently on Geni)

NOTE: The above entry in CP would indicate that John had no issue. However CP XIV:206, in a correction/addendum to the above entry, adds after "Cornwall" in note (a) above: "It is possible, however, that John Corbet left male issue. See Patrick Montague-Smith, 'Corbets, Barons of Caus and of Leighton'... He there cites an IPM of Mary, Lady Ros in 1403/4 where the heir to the Orreby estates was found to be Richard Corbet of Leighton, great-great-grandson of Peter Corbet and his wife Alice de Orreby. This information does not appear in the published IPM of 1393/4 when she died."

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This would also suggest that Alice de Orreby was indeed the last baron's mother.

BUT Eynton makes a great point about the single manor of Binweston, which had been held by Beatrice de Beauchamp in her lifetime. It does not seem like much of a barony.

Conflicting theories and interpreting documents differently does confuse things.

If true, why on earth would John's issue be excluded in favor of his aunt's? Have to rule out illegitimacy. The male descendant would not have been able to inherit the Orreby estates.

Am I missing something here?

I will see if I can find Mary, Lady Ros 1403/4 IPM.

There is also the mystery of why he was screwed over in his own lifetime, and the Heralds of Shropshire validating the Leighton pedigree 4 gens later.

Meanwhile the Orreby tree is slopped up on Geni. I'm sorting according to Weber / CP, which gets them off the de la Pole / le Strange tree.

I haven't found Mary Ros 1403/4 IPM but I have found her earlier ones and can confirm Richard Corbet of Leighton is not mentioned in those.

See: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol17/pp196-209

I have to go pick up my daughter from daycare soon so will have to leave it there for the moment. I will do a bit more searching tonight.

Found something

https://books.google.com/books?id=h_sUAAAAQAAJ&dq=%22Orreby%20C...

1410- 11, Richard, kinsman and heir of Dame Mary le Roos, the manor of Stapleford-Foulk being in the hands of the Earl of Chester, owing to the minority of the said Richard, and an inquisition finding that the said Richard died without heirs, the escheator of Chester is commanded to make livery of the said manor to William son of William de Brereton, Kt., and Alice his wife, sister and heir of the said Richard. [11 & 12 Hen. 4. m. 2 d. (10).] CORBYN.

No. 1.—Welsh Records: Recognizance Rolls of Chester—continued. Cobbet—cont.

Above it is this one

1408, Richard, writ for livery to, setting forth the rinding of an inquisition, Aug. 13. viz., that Richard son of John Corbet, of Leghton, died seized in his
demesne as of fee of the manor of Whalgherton, held of the Earl of Chester in capite by knight's service, yearly value 100s.; also of the manor of Hatherton, held by the same tenure, yearly value 10/.; also of the manor of Churchcopenhale, held by the same tenure, yearly value 100s.; that Richard Corbet was the heir of the said Richard son of John Corbet, viz., son of John son of John Corbet, Kt., greatgrandfather of the said Richard, and that he was of 30 years of age or more. [8 & 9 Hen. 4. m. 10 (4).]

http://rcp.cheshire.gov.uk/SingleResult.aspx?uid=MCH1351 held by the Orrebys, Breretons and Bruens