Sir Roger Corbet, Kt. - The Corbet Mess and the Visitations of Shropshire

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Someday I'm writing a novel with all the Nevilles in it. All of 'em. And I'm not going to untangle them, either. Just hash it out in the novel. They can have arguments about how they are related. Very meta.

It turns out these Essex Nevilles don't go no place, they land right back at Katherine the Anchorite, whose de Perers grandson we're trying to identify correctly

https://www.geni.com/path/Sir-John-de-Neville-2nd-Baron-Neville-of-...

A little something on James de Perers

https://books.google.com/books?id=KpfRAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA543&ot... page 563] of Calendar of Documents Relating to Scotland Preserved in Her Majesty's Public ... By Great Britain. Public Record Office

>Perriera (Perers), Sir James de, a prisoner in Scotland and ransomed (July 1314), 381; pardoned in consequence for marrying Ela de la Pole, ib.; ward of his lands till his heir's majority given to Donald de Mar (Sept. 1317), 573; and marriage of Ela his widow, it.

Is it at all possible that Ela de Audley also married Peter Giffard before she married Peter Corbet?

From Collections for a History of Staffordshire, Volume 5 (which may have mixed up the John Giffards)

https://books.google.com/books?id=mAo5AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA101&lpg...

Before proceeding with the history of the successors of the last Sir John Giffard, I propose to devote a page to the career of his half-brother Sir Peter Giffard, who played a not unimportant part in the troubled reign of Edward II.
He first appears in Ada Giffard’s deed of 10 E. II (March, 1317), by which Ada grants to Peter Gifi'ard, her son, all her interest in Gunston (deed No. 13).
In 13 E. II (1319), he was serving in Scotland in the retinue of John de Cherleton. This John was married to Hawyse, the sister and heir of C-rifiin de la Pole, the Prince of Powis, and in the same year we find Peter Giffard married to Ela, the widow of Grifiin. The latter had died under age in 1309, leaving no issue, and .Ela married J ames de Perrers1 shortly afterwards, and had been left a widow for a second time when she married Peter Gifi'ard. Ela was daughter of Nicholas, Lord Audley, and her mother Katherine was a daughter of John Giffard, the Baron of Brimsfield.
On the De Banco Roll of Michaelmas, 13 E. II, Peter Giffard and Ela, his wife, sued Walter de Grendon to render to them an account for the time he had been the bailiff of the said Ela in Tissington, co. Derby.’
At Michaelmas term, 15 E. II, Joan, late wife of Nicholas de Audley, sued Peter Giffard and Ela, his wife, for 10 marks of rent in Legh Underbrokhurst, in which Ela had no entry except through Nicholas de Audley, the husband of Joan, who had demised the rent to Ela and to James de Perers, formerly her husband, and to which Joan could not object during the lifetime of her husband.8

By this marriage Peter had become a very large landowner in Wales, for besides Ela’s dower as widow of Griffin de la Pole, the Prince of Powis, her mother, Katherine de Audley, by a deed in the Liber Rubeus, had granted to James de Perers and to Ela, her daughter, the castle and manor of Thlamandewry, with the Commotes of Hormyn and Pernet, to be held by them and the heirs of their bodies. This deed also proves the parentage of Ela, for Katherine was the wife of Nicholas, Lord Audley, who died in 1299.1
Sir Peter, as the husband of a dowager Princess of Powis, must have been an important person in Wales at this juncture. The King had recalled the Despencers on the 8th December, 1321, and immediately ordered a levy of men from Wales and from the counties of Sussex, Oxford, Berks, Hants, Northampton, Stafford, Warwick, and Lancaster.
In January, 1322, on the rebellion of Roger de Mortimer, the King committed to Peter Giffard the custody of the Castle of Chirk, which was the caput of the Barony of Mortimer. On the 5th March in the same year, when the King assembled his forces at Coventry to attack the Confederate Lords under the Earl of Lancaster, he commanded Sir Peter Giffard to send to the rendezvous of the army at Coventry 500 men from Chirk.’
The Commissioners of Array for co. Stafford were John de Swynnerton and John Gififard of Chillington, who were ordered to raise 2,000 men and conduct them to the King wherever he might be.
The King had always been popular with the Welsh, and a large body of that nation joined his standard. On hearing of his approach, the Earl of Lancaster raised the siege of Tickhill and attempted to defend the line of the Trent, but the King passed by a ford, and the Earl fell back towards Scotland. At Boroughbridge he was intercepted by a force from Cumberland, and after a few hours’ fighting, his army was defeated and dispersed.
Sir Peter Gifi'ard must have taken part in these operations, for his arms are entered on the famous Roll of Boroughbridge. He bore azure, three stirrups and leathers gold and a border for distinction as a younger son. I think it probable that he served as a banneret upon this occasion. The battle was fought on the 22nd March.

In the following year he was dead, for on the 22nd April, 16 E. II (1323), the King issued a writ to the Sheriff of Salop and Stafiord commanding him to take into the King’s hands all the goods and chattels of Peter Gifiard, late custos of the Castle of Chirk, who was dead, and who was indebted at the date of his death in divers sums to the King.1 Apparently the harshness of the King’s fiscal ofiicers upon this occasion alienated Ela, the widow of Sir Peter, from her allegiance to the King’s cause, for two years afterwards there is an entry on the Fine Roll of 18 E. II stating that Ela, formerly wife of James de Percrs, who had been indicted for adhering to the King’s enemies, made oath, and found security for her good behaviour in a sum of £300. It is not unusual to find a widow designated in this way on the Rolls under the name of a previous husband.

Peter left a son Hugh, who served in the expedition to Hennebonne in 1342. He was probably son of Peter by a former wife and was one of a body of outlaws employed by Edward III, who, having found sureties to serve at their own cost, obtained a general pardon dated from (Jastry on the 16th September, 1342.’

The one source I found for Ela being the wife of Peter Corbet is dated July 14. 1322. That makes her married to two men at the same time. I wonder if the original document and/or the transcript recorded the wrong husband for Ela. Peter Corbet may be a mistake for Peter Gifford. I'm off to hunt for some documents for Peter Gifford.

Peter Giffard should be a son of Sir John Giffard, 5th Baron of Chillington

I was thinking mis transcribed also but wanted to be sure.

Peter Corbet paying a surety for his step son is more compelling evidence.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1468-2281.12009/abstract

This article shows that the so-called ‘Boroughbridge roll of arms’ cannot have been compiled to commemorate that battle. Investigation based on comparison with other rolls of arms and biographical information of those named suggests that it was drawn up in connection with a tournament held during the Berwick campaign of late 1319.

Peter Giffard is on the Newcastle Armorial 1319 list

http://www.armorial.dk/english/Newcastle.pdf

I've found two documents which mention Peter Giffard and Ela. Both are dated 1319.

CP 25/1/286/31, number 182.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Herefordshire. Nottinghamshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: The day after St John the Baptist, 12 Edward II [25 June 1319].
Parties: Peter Giffard' and Ela, his wife, querents, and John, the parson of the church of Sheynton', deforciant.
Property: 6 messuages, 1 carucate and 6 bovates of land, 4 acres of meadow and 10 shillings of rent in Haffeld', Wolfputtes, Masynton' and Ledebury in the county of Hereford and a third part of the manor of Thornhawe in the county of Nottingham.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Peter has acknowledged the tenements to be the right of John, as those which John has of his gift.
For this: John has granted to Peter and Ela the tenements and has rendered them to them in the court, to hold to Peter and Ela and the heirs of their bodies, of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, remainder to the right heirs of Ela.

Source: Abstracts of Feet of Fines http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_286_31....

13 April 1319 Kirkham
Licence for John de Cherleton and Hawisia, his wife, to grant to Master
Thomas de Cherleton, king's clerk, their reversions in two parts of the
manor of Grenehalle and of the land of Megheyn Ughcoyt, and Moghnanf
Ughraider in the Marches of Wales, held in chief, and which Peter Giffard
and Ela his wife hold in dower of the said Ela of the inheritance of the
said Hawisia, and also of the remaining third part of the said manor and
lands, which Sybil, late the wife of Louis de la Pole, holds in dower of the
same inheritance ; licence also for the said Thomas to regrant the same
reversions to the said John and Hawisia for their lives, with remainder, and
to John son of John de Cherleton and Matilda his wife and the heirs of
the body of the said John son of John, and failing such issue to Owen
(Amheno) son of John de Cherleton and the heirs of his body, to Edward
son of John de Cherleton and the heirs of his body, to Humphrey son of
John de Cherleton and the heirs of his body and finally to the right heirs
of the said Hawisia. By p.s.

Source: Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public Record Office: Edward II, A.D. 1307-1327

In 1319

- This "Ledebury in the county of Hereford" is part of Katherine the Anchorite's pension property, don't you think? It's the reason they'd be holding in Hereford.

- Dower property of Ela de la Pole, who was holding it between 1309 - 1319 ? After her death in 1325 wouldn't it have gone to Gruffyd's heir, his sister Hawise?

- Peter Giffard died by April 1323. The date when Peter Corbet was surety for James de Perers?

- we now have the contradiction with Cadair / Bartrum

The IPM for Ela is held in Stafford, and where did she get the Stafford lands? The name Hastang, in the IPM, is in the Giffard tree

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol6/pp353-361

I believe Peter Corbet was a mistranscription for Sir Peter Giffard, Knt. on the Close Roll calendar of 14 July 1322

https://books.google.com/books?id=v5BCAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA571&lpg...

There is no other evidence supporting this marriage, and actually when I think about it, she has no other association with Shropshire (perhaps her Corbet grand mother?). She's Herfordshire (and we know why - her mother landed there); Powis in Wales; and Staffordshire.

James de Perers died in 1317, and she is seen in three spots including the Newcastle Roll as wife of Peter Giffard in 1319. If they had no children and he was dead two years before her, it seems OK that she's not mentioned as his widow in her IPM (?)

Oh Hey more evidence that Ela de Perers (this seems to be her most frequent name) was subversive to King Edward ll. Article about her brother in law, Richard Perers, who also stood mainpern for his nephew James ll de Perers

https://books.google.com/books?id=hqDRAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA154&ot...

The English Historical Review
edited by Mandell Creighton, Justin Winsor, Samuel Rawson Gardiner, Reginald Lane Poole, Sir John Goronwy Edwards page 154

We may turn now to Essex and Hertfordshire. The sheriff was Richard de Perers. The available facts illustrating the situation and career of this man throw so much light on the questions we are discussing that they deserve to be considered in some detail. They tend to show, to put the matter briefly at the outset, that Perers, who was a man of considerable local influence and importance, a strong partisan deeply involved in the political movement of his day, consistently treated the opportunity of attendance at parliament with contempt or at least indifference.

The family of Perers were established in the region of Cheshunt by the middle of the thirteenth century, and Richard's patrimony seems to have been Periers, a sub-manor of Cheshunt which was itself held of the honour of Richmond. In 1316 he acquired Knebworth from his mother-in-law, and, later, the manor of Cheshunt itself was committed to his keeping. There is evidence that he held land in other counties as well, Oxfordshire, Leicester ....

Richmond deserted his cousin and joined the queen in France in 1325,6 and there are some curious indications that Perers followed his patron in his adherence to the party of revolution and was able to render them substantial service, and was duly rewarded. In 1325 Richard de Perers, described as 'knight of Essex ', was one of the mainpernors to the extent of £300 for his sister-in-law Ela, widow of the late James de Perers. This lady had been required to give security 'that she will not send or cause to be sent by herself or another any letter or token or by a messenger or otherwise within the realm or without, whereby scandal could arise to the king or his or any damage to the realm '. This undertaking with its reference to communications outside the realm points straight to the queen and Mortimer in France.1 Nor would it be surprising to find that the widow of an Essex gentleman was furnishing them intelligence of their friends in England—we know that the gentry of Essex welcomed and supported the queen when she landed.2 If Richard de Perers was able to cover this correspondence and thereby make its continuance possible, no doubt he had deserved well at the hands of the revolutionary party, and as sheriff of Essex and Hertfordshire, to say nothing of his position in the latter county, he was well able to render this service.

----

They were on the side of the She Wolf of France!

A lot to take in. I'm trying to get my head around it all.

Re: the Dower property

Correct.

Common law dower gave the widow a claim to a third part of any land of which her husband was seised at any time during the marriage such that her children by him could inherit. As there were no children by him the property would have gone to Gruffyd's next heir, his sister.

Re: the Stafford lands

It reads more like it's her own family land rather than dower land. In Ela's IPM for Staffordshire it states she held those lands of the heirs of Nicholas Audley and upon her death, the Stafford lands reverted back to Nicholas Audley's heir his son James Audley (Ela's nephew).

Agree with your comment about Ela having no association with Shropshire. I think her other husbands were not mentioned in her IPM's because she had no issue (or surviving issue) with them and were therefore irrelevant. Sometimes previous husbands were mentioned in IPMs and sometimes not.

I think we have enough evidence to confirm the marriage to Peter Corbet is an error.

I have removed the mistranscribed document from Peter Corbet's profile to avoid further confusion. Will leave it on Ela's profile though so others can see there is a mistake in one of the sources.

I'm so tickled she was a spy !

A new favourite ancestor of mine. She's my 24th great aunt, her brother Nicholas is my 23rd great grandfather.

She's as extraordinary in her own way as her mother. Powerful women who made different choices, so pleased to have uncovered this much information.

Must run in the family as I have never been one to conform and follow the crowd. My daughter is showing signs of that too. :D

Sir Roger Corbet, of Caus, Knt. (ancestor of the Corbet's of Leigh) is currently attached as a son of Sir Roger Corbet, Knight and Nest Corbet (née de Valle)

I have found two documents which seem to disprove that relationship. In both documents, Roger is recorded as the son of Thomas Corbet of Caus. I'm not sure who Thomas Corbet of Caus is and where he fit's in with the other Corbets of Caus.

CP 25/1/194/9, number 57.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Shropshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: One week from Holy Trinity, 11 Edward II [25 June 1318].
Parties: Roger, son of Thomas Corbet of Caus, querent, and Thomas Hager, impedient.
Property: The manor of Leghe by Worthyn.
Action: Plea of warranty of charter.
Agreement: Thomas has acknowledged the manor to be the right of Roger, as that which Roger has of his gift, to hold to Roger and his heirs, of the chief lords for ever.
Warranty: Warranty by Thomas for himself and his heirs.
For this: Roger has given him 20 pounds sterling.

Source: Abstracts of Feet of Fines
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_194_9.s...

July 13. 1325. Westminster
Pardon to Roger son of Thomas Corbet of Caus, for acquiring in fee tail
from Peter son of Peter Corbet of Caus, a messuage, 13 carucates of land,
30 acres of meadow, 40 acres of pasture, 60 acres of wood, and a moiety of
a mill in Hemme by Mountgomery held in chief, and entering therein
without licence; and licence for him to retain the same, with remainder
to Peter son of Thomas Corbet and the heirs of his body, and reversion to
the said Peter son of Peter and his heirs. By p.s.

Source: Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public Record Office: Edward II, A.D. 1307-1327. Page 155

Ela and James *did* have a son (James Perrers jr.) but whether he lived to grow up is very unclear, and even if he did, he may not have sired any children himself.

James Perrers ll was living in 1622 and bailed out Into the custody of Peter G and Ela.

Did we figure out who the Perers is that petitioned for his father's property etc?

I connected the Hoo Perers to Ela's brother in law Perers once I saw the article above. In fact it made me wonder if she was living near him with her son from 1623 - 1625 ..
.

Can I get another set of eyes on this possible merge?

https://www.geni.com/merge/compare/6000000000742308778

We have a Johanna de la Pole given as wife of Roger Trumwyn, and another as a Corbet, widow de la Pole, wife of Roger Trumwyn (Thromwin)

Dates & locations are not matching up. Docs attached to both profiles

Here's the Corbet / de la Pole

Johanna de la Pole

I think they are meant to be the same person but Joan could not have been born in 1294. Her first husband died in 1293.

I found this very late document dated 29 years after the death of Joan's first husband.

March 13. 1322 Derby.
To Robert de Sapy, keeper of the land of Powys, or to him who supplies his place. Order to deliver to Roger de Trumwyne and Joan his wife, late the wife of Owen de la Pole, all the lands that they held of her dower in Powys, which were taken into the king's hands, as Roger has found the king security that he will be faithful to him and his heirs. By K.

Source: 'Close Rolls, Edward II: March 1322', in Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward II: Volume 3, 1318-1323, ed. H C Maxwell Lyte (London, 1895), pp. 426-430. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/cal-close-rolls/edw2/vol3/pp426-430 [accessed 15 September 2017].

Ah ha! That proves it. Thanks, Charlene. More mysteries coming up though ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=3F9nG8aFJ7MC&lpg=PA150&ot...

page 150 of Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists who Came to America Before ... By Frederick Lewis Weis, Walter Lee Sheppard, William Ryland Beall, Kaleen E. Beall

Has "Margaret de Weston (d 1349), daughter and co heir of Sir Thomas de Weston. Married 1) John de Louvaine 2) to William de Wauton"

I had found her attached to this

Sir Thomas de Weston, of Weston under Lusyerd, Knt.

Whose son Robert dsp and the property of Weston & Newton in Staffordshire was divided among his sisters

So I created a new Sir Thomas as Margaret's father and am wondering who he was

Tagging Margaret Wauton

Also who was her 2nd husband and mother

Notice the Louvaine husband is of Essex & I don't see him, or these Westons, in History of Staffordshire

https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA336-IA1&lpg=PA336-IA1&d...

And working on the de Weston line led to another New World immigrant

Thomas Weston, Ironmonger, of London & America

Notorious for many dicey actions including cutting a deal to spirit away the tragic More children to the Plymouth Colony

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