Nicketti Hughes - Disconnect parents

Yes it is time to disconnect parents!!!!!!!

Placeholder father created, Nicketti is now relationship locked to those parents

Father of Nicketti

Dropping links here to tie in two earlier discussions:

https://www.geni.com/discussions/126870

https://www.geni.com/discussions/170137

A. Floyd Family Association and Team N8V of 100+ respond: A. To disconnect over circa time lines is not a valid reason to disconnect. B. Please reconnect her to her father Opekenkeno.

Personally, I’m not real impressed by this argument, which I also do not understand.

A. Floyd Family Association and Team N8V of 100+ respond:

A. To disconnect over circa time lines is not a valid reason to disconnect.

It is standard genealogy practice to try and figure out a plausible timeline that fits with known facts.

That has never been presented in a fashion that can be interpreted objectively.

I do not know what the official Floyd Family Foundation position is. Is there a website link?

I do not know what Team NV8 is and what their request is and what it’s based on.

If it’s DNA studies, that needs its own separate discussion in standard English describing methods and interpretations etc. Then that can be discussed and questions asked and answered.

B. Please reconnect her to her father Opekenkeno.

No one knows who if anyone Opechancanough fathered.

No one knows who if anyone Cleopatra mothered.

This is treated no differently than any other genealogy where we do not have records. We link within the parent placeholder profile to the suggested parent (s).

Floyd Family Association and Team N8V of 100+ respond to the line of this thread for the disconnection reason from the traditionally held father of Nicati being Opekenkeno for "circa time lines"is needing a reconnection her to her father Opekenkeno because the stated reason of disconnecting her based on time lines that are guessed, is not a good reason to disconnect someone from their line. https://www.facebook.com/notes/adventurer/nicati-grandmother-she-wh...

I am not the one making the claim. It is not up to me.

More then that if there is ANY hostility to me or any other curator or member this thread will be reported and so will the persons being hostile, and yes, I am speaking to and about Jason Floyd.

Bellinda, the evidence needs to be presented in very clear and simple language. You use a DNA shorthand that's fabulous in your projects and obviously helpful to the team, but is "not" easily understood by anyone else.

We are already familiar with the facts. So I presume there is "new news.".

Jason wrote: "Your not the only one not impressed."

That is a personal attack. And a warning to never post like that again.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/adventurer/nicati-grandmother-she-wh...

Upwards of 100 people have been asking for over a year for Nicati to have a reconnection to her dad, Opekenkeno, in emails to me. There is old news which is that the triangulations of the claimants of the Sapony cousins, the Lumbee cousins and the Cheraw kits claiming Harrison line of their MRCA back to Nicati has always been a SNP that is 71-74m. Adding to that are those claiming Nicati via Harrison Kits x 53 from FTDNA. The new news is that Ancestry DNA is triangulating now and everyone who runs their kits in independent group batches all agree with the Wikitree stated results and the results on Ancestry have her partner to JRH1 or Capt John Rice Hooe 1 and daughter of Opekenkeno. The other new thing is Bill Deyo participating in a project with Paintings and his dna did abutt to the the same segment right where it should for Nicati claimants being in the Powhatan circle and at the level and the segments where she should, as claimed.

Thank you,

CC: Alex Luken, Floyd Family Historian
Jason Floyd, Chair of Native American Indian Federation

Bellinda Gail Myrick-Barnett

This is not in English. :)

I truly suggest you start a separate discussion from this profile with details of the test setup and results.

We have genealogists on Geni who do genetic genealogy and I imagine we can ask outside “experts” to take a look also.

But a letter saying “we have results” doesn’t say much. We need to understand (in English) the test conditions in detail, and I would also think, be able to replicate them.

I hope this makes sense.

And uploading the note from Alex Lukens along with contact information (website etc) is very helpful.

Ok I need to start a separate discussion from the project that has a discussion here.
https://www.geni.com/projects/Nicati-Hooe-Sarah-Goodwin-pronounced-...

It can be in the project.

It's not in English.

I am expecting:

Test goal
Test conditions
Results
Implications

You do not have a known descendant of Opechancanogh.
Do you have known descendants of Pocohantas ? How do we know they are?
You do not have known descendants of Cleopatra.
You are beyond the usual parameters for atDNA. How, then, are the match results meaningful?
Are there any haplogroups identified?
Is the method used supported by peer reviewed publications ? Citations to those publications?

(and those more familiar with genetic DNA I'm sure have more questions)

Query: is it more plausible that this Nicketti was descended via a *son* of Opechancanough, or a *daughter*? Assuming male-line descent is a very European thing.

Test goal - Everyone running group chromosome analysis who claims Nicati verity that they do triangulate and where.
Test conditions - CODIS and I4GG have done our work.
Results - Nicati Hooe, wife of JRH1 's parents were Opekenkeno and Cleopatra
Implications - We do what the 2 years of Pro analysis has said to do.

Bill Deyo, known descendant of Opechancanogh. - triangulates at end SNP just where he should per his charting of hi line, which he is on record as this line being to Opekenkeno and Cleopatra.
Our other known dscendants of Pocohantas kits are public via the Bolling Family Asociation and our matchers with them top at 40 because that is enough. How do we know they are? We can see who matches where with said Jane Rolfe descendants.
Cleopatra has a known descendants in the dna story and that is Nicati and her results with Bill Deyo have a known segment on a known chromosome.
You are beyond the usual parameters for atDNA. How, then, are the match results meaningful? No, every Pro says that endogamy works at this level.
Are there any haplogroups identified?
Is the method used supported by peer reviewed publications ? Citations to those publications? This is just a report to you of all the various companies reporting the same thing that lay people with Genome Map, Tier 1, or any chromosome browser that runs matrices in groups can tell anyone who wants to run a batch of verified Bolling kits to any of their own chosen kit participants. FTDNA atDNA Harrison project settled this 2 years ago for the Hughes project. FTDNA ydna project settled that the How's Ferry Shirley's Acre JRH1 is I P37 and no other "Hughes" named person or Perrault named person is related to him.

Nobody gets special treatment here, Bellinda. I had to do essentially the same thing on the Frances White Wells upline when it became glaringly obvious that the Visitations had accidentally omitted a generation (the one in between the Wars of the Roses and the court of Henry VIII). There was a high probability that the missing father was yet another Richard (the family was far too fond of that name), but no way of guessing who the mother was.

There aren't even any DNA studies to back this up - it's all paper-trail work, and there are places (including Frances herself) where the paper is very thin. The one certainty, based on chronology and known female biology, is that her mother was *not* Lady Catherine Weston.

Whether she was Sir Richard White's second(?) daughter by first wife Anne Gray...is still unproven, and may never be provable.

Bellinda, I spotted some circular reasoning here: "Cleopatra has a known descendants in the dna story and that is Nicati"

You're starting with the assumption that X = Cleopatra and can only be Cleopatra, and trying to prove the assumption via the conclusion: "Nicati is the descendant of Cleopatra, therefore Nicati is the descendant of Cleopatra". This may be so, but it isn't *proof* - it's just saying the dame thing twice.

As for accuracy, please see Frances White Wells.

Same thing twice. Typoes, grrr.

Maven, it is not special treatment. It is only pointing out that the General Manager asked to look at what CODIS and I4GG already say and it is not even a dispute, easily verified by lay people, which I am reporting as a curtesy, since it is not my line; that is dna proven. Just reported the proof that exists. It really doesn't matter if I repeat myself twice or reason in any kind of capacity that does not meet muster to this particular group.

I beg to differ, Bellinda. You *were* arguing for special treatment of Nicati based on (very cryptic to lay persons) DNA studies that, frankly, fly in the face of chronology and common sense. You *were* arguing that she should *not* have a generation inserted between her and Opechancanough because blah blah blah.

I'm not the expert Justin is, but I know a little more about DNA analysis than Erica does, and I know bafflegab when I see it. And I know a logical impossibility when I see one, too.

Put into lay terms, the argument is that the DNA matches point to a person X who is assumed, on the basis of tradition and what little paper trail exists, to be Nicketti Hughes, and you are further assuming - *without* a paper trail, based *only* on fragmentary autosomal Y-DNA matches - that she *must* be the *daughter* (not granddaughter, no matter how much more plausible that would be) of Opechancanough.

I really don't see how autosomal DNA, no matter how carefully and precisely studied, can be *that* specific.

Bother, logical fallacy on *my* part. Too much talk of male-line studies - there is *no such thing* as "autosomal Y-DNA". There is autosomal, which is based on *all* the available chromosomes, and there is Y-DNA, which studies the male Y chromosome *only*. There is some overlap, but I got way too careless. Maybe I need to go back to bed....

Maven, thank you for articulating my point.

I'm still seeing a version of "Nicati is Nicati because we say so."

Bill Deyo does not claim to be an Opechanough descendant, i don't think. If he does I'd want to see the descent, because he would be the first known.

How is it possible to match atDNA at gen 13 to Pocahontas? It's the first I've heard of atDNA this far out.

Bill claims Powhatan, abutts to those who do claim Nicati and in the right ways.
It is really easy to match with endogamy which these lines have to all their Wind Clan
claiming Creek, the Saponi Harris, the Hoosier Harrisons, it is easy to pick up
a triangulation just where CODIS and I4GG pick it up and anyone with a
chromosome browse who runs a batch of any 10 claimants against Bill Deyo and
any number of other in the long list of public kit numbers can see for themselves.

It is not hard to see who matches with what Powhatan claimants in huge numbers and in what way.

“Powhatan” is not the same as “descent from Opechancanough.” We don’t even know for sure Opechancanough’s origins; I recall Bill Deyo postulating that he was a half brother or even possibly an adoptive brother of Powhatan.

To phrase the match as I think you’re seeing it.

- There are known descendants of Pocahontas, known daughter of Powhatan

- one line is through her postulated daughter, Ka Okee Pettus

- one line Is through her known son, Thomas Rolfe

(I believe Bill Deyo claims from both children but we’d need to double check that)

- there are many other descendants of these two children of Pocohantas; however the test was only looking at Rolfe, is that right ?

- there is a chromosome where descendants of Pocahontas match descendants of ??? Nicati ??? (Please confirm)

- therefore the claim is that Nicati and Pocahontas shared a common ancestor?

- what were the test conditions? In other words, the test used on Gedmatch with cm’s set to (what value)

Which chromosome is the match, at what value, with what filter to rule out a different common ancestor ?

https://www.facebook.com/notes/adventurer/nicati-grandmother-she-wh...

“It will come out as meeting on the 71 - 74m of the 2nd chromosome.”

I’ll need a translation for that.

I believe the claim is the common ancestor is would be found via matching on the 2nd chromosome.

How does that identify a particular person in history ?

I think I see what the problem is. Somebody pulled a total disconnect based on total disbelief in the Opechancanough story, when it might have been sufficient to extend the chain a link or two with unidentified parents (and grandparents?).

Right now I find the presented evidence inconclusive either way.

That’s what I was getting at with a proposed chronology, Maven; and in fact we worked quite hard a year ago, going backwards from known dates, to see how it could work.

This gathered no interest or buy in. The claim remained the same; in fact argument with known date stamps: such as the probable date, based on archeological evidence, of the chimney at Trader Hughes post.

In addition to improbable chronology there’s a major geographic issue. How do descendants from the Tidewater get out to Amherst VA, and when?

But to me the real elephant in the room is not acknowledging the racism of the time & place the claim was made.

If Nicati was related to Pocohantas, she’s an honorary white person, and her descendants are not in danger of losing white privilege.

But if she’s the ancestor of “the half breed girl” and has no known lineage, the Kentucky gentlemen can’t allow that.