Col. John West of West Point, Virginia - @Colonel John West II

> Is there such a thing as a Pamunkey leader granted land as a head right ?

No.

But that might be one of the keys that unlocks our mystery. You and I are already skeptical that Toby = Totopotomoi. A detail like that would confirm the doubts.

Then check the CP if you doubt it.

Actually the GFA notes are from Cavaliers & Pioneers. I'm summarizing from Ancestry below & will upload images to [somewhere] for Toby West

https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/48408/CavaliersPioneers-004773...

1653, John Barrow grant, Surry, for transport of 8 persons, including Toby West

https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/48408/CavaliersPioneers-004773...

1654, Capt John West, Esqr, one of the councils of state, 1000 acs ... (as above in footnote 7 from GFA) ... Transport of 20 persons .. [no Wests listed]

1654, Toby West grant (as above in footnote 8 from GFA), for transport of 10 persons. *

https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/48408/CavaliersPioneers-004850...

1659, Major Joseph Croshaw, [text as above in GFA]. ... Granted to Toby West & by him assigned to Joseph Croshaw, due for transport of 10 persons (listed)

-----

So the new find is that Toby West was transported into Surry county in 1653.

Good stuff. Amazing stuff.

Remember that you got head rights for family and relatives. Some jump to the conclusion that this means the people transported were indentured servants. The documents show differently. There were indentured servants, certainly, but it's clear many people were just parceling out the kin so the extended family could qualify for more land.

Toby is NOT Totopotomoi. Can we finally put that fiction behind us?

They're on the media tab for Gov John West, died 1659, a good reason for Toby to have moved on?

https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000008051611667?album_type=phot...= see Barlow

https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000008051611667?album_type=phot... the patent

https://www.geni.com/photo/view/6000000008051611667?album_type=phot...= see Joseph Croshaw for the list of headrights originally claimed by Toby West, he transfers his land rights for them to [his brother's father in law ? Brother's brother in law? Logical]

-----

So if Totopotomoi was "full blood" Pamunkey as seems likely, he cannot have been the father of Capt. John West, who is found by (muddled) Y DNA descent testing as well as eyewitness accounts to have been 1/2 white.

On the other hand, he married a Pamunkey woman and seems to have lived with the Pamunkey, only, until at least 1680. There is some contemporary discussion that he could speak English (but refused to). He signed with a pictograph. He is not "in history" after 1678 ...

Unless he unaccountably turns into "Maj" John West of Stafford, the articulate and well married planter.

https://archive.org/stream/cavalierspioneer00nuge#page/n11/mode/2up... search results, would probably be good to identify the transportees.

Does anyone know the source of the last point from Totopotomoi, Weroance of the Pamunkey profile

Necto (c. 1600-1649) was the Wero (Chief) of the Pamunky tribe following the death of his father , OPECANCANOUGH/ Ope can cony [citation is NPS Study of the Capt John Smiith of Purton - Wicocomico State Park Study by Moretti & Langshot ] After his death he was succeeded by Totopotomoi as Wero of the Pamunky. He signed a Treaty with the Colony of Virginia in 1645, at which time he was called by the English "King of the Indians."

He signed an agreement with Col John West II in 1655 in which he signed his name Toby West, taking on the name of West.

That's the document where Toby West was a signing witness, in beautiful script.

(I'm editing the comment out of the profile, it's not a Pamunkey "king of the indians" signature).

The source of the 1655 agreement is from the Chowanoke Nation. Will put it there.

That's the one with the beautiful Toby West signature on the English side, under the two John Wests. The Indian & his "protector" are on the left side of the document. So Toby West is English. If it were Totopotomoi using an alternate name, he still would have signed on the left side of the agreement, used his title as given by the English ("king of the Indians"), and affixed a seal / sigil of some sort.

See what I mean? Actually I shouldn't be saying Toby West is just a witness - it looks like witnessing this agreement was important.

https://books.google.com/books?id=t2LQI2FlB60C&pg=PR5&lpg=P...

Thumbs up.

I'm looking for "any" contemporary reference to the King of the Pamunkey.

This is a great reference source

https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/jame1/moretti-langholt...

There are some good notes by looking in Rountree

https://books.google.com/books?id=fUzd7LeJpjYC&pg=PA52&lpg=...

Pocahontas's People: The Powhatan Indians of Virginia Through Four Centuries
By Helen C. Rountree

- 1676 is when Indians began taking also English names - not before. Capt John West is in fact a first documented example of it

- he was called the weroance of Nansemond

- note 169 on page 316. Looks like the runaway wife went back to the Pamunkeys - and the fallout was because of disputes over leadership of the two tribes (which we know she win)

- so if John West had his own position of authority ....

https://books.google.com/books?id=fUzd7LeJpjYC&lpg=PA52&ots...

I've been looking at the notes for Maj. Joseph Croshaw

I think I know what happened to the Toby West property. This might be a timeline.

- 1653 - Toby West, kin to Gov West (nephew?) arrives from England (?) to Surry VA
- 1654 - patents 500 acres next to (cousin ?) John West in Gloucester VA on the Mattapony River
- 1655 - since he lives there (grin) a convenient witness to the Indian agreement meant for Gov West, who was not actually in residence at the time, but that was OK, there were 3 West relatives to act on his behalf, and the Indian kid could get out of there
- 1659 - Gov West dies. Toby decides not to continue the adventure, and sells (?) his property to his (cousin's) father in law
- 1659 - Croshaw claims for Toby's 10 headlights
- 1667 - Croshaw dies.
- 1682 - his surviving son Joseph Croshaw dies without issue, guess who inherits the Croshaw estates ?

That's right.

Unity West

Who would pass it on to ...

Her West chlldren.

Maybe even to Anne Fox, and Tom is in line for those 500 acres. :):)

Toby West for sure needs his own profile.

If Toby and Totopotomoy are not the same person, then the question -- could Capt. John West be the son of Toby West?

That would have to be and remain entirely speculative.

I would would shore up the possibility that Maj John (died 1716) was the same as Capt John, while also explaining how Maj John ended up with 500 acres that seem to have been granted to Toby.

It could solve the (supposed) problem of two half-brothers with the same name. They'd be cousins, not brothers.

It could be an insight into why there are no other known descendants of Toby, and also no record his lands passed by sale to someone else.

It might explain the odd story that Totopotomoy was the illegitimate son of the 3rd baron -- what if that were Toby instead? In other words, Toby could have been an illegitimate nephew of the Governor. (Gov gets 1000 acres in 1653, Toby gets 500 acres, and Gov's sons get nothing -- logical if these were their relationships.)

The only thing I don't like about it is the DNA results for Group 7b. If Maj John's descendants really do belong to that group then it falls apart unless there's an NPE or paper trail mistake somewhere in the line.

This doesn't mean I'm ignoring the Toby West's assignment of 10 headrights to Croshaw. Still thinking about that.

> Toby West for sure needs his own profile.

Yes, most certainly. There's enough here for that.

Kimbro-Field: A History of the Kimbro and Field Families of Middle Tennesse by Kenneth Kimbro, 1992, pp76-77.
May 3, 1653: John Barrow, Shipmaster for William and Anne
(John Barrow was the shipmaster for the ship on which William and Anne Murrell sailed from England to America. In 1653, John Barrow was granted some land for transporting his passengers).
John Barrow, 386 acs. Surry Co., 3 May 1653, p. 249. S.W. side of Upper Chipookes Cr., S. side of James Riv., bounded from George Burchers markt trees & c. Trans of 8 pers: WILLIAM MURRELL, Toby West, Antho. Borley, Richard Branie (or Braine), ANNE MORRALL, Susan Harrington.

Source of transcription: http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/p/e/n/Jeffrey-W-Pendleton/WEBSITE-0001...

-----

Remember that what [Cornelius Dabney] said about Capt John West was that he was the son of an English Colonel. The 2nd John West seemed to have a "reputation" - and didn't he gain the title of Col?

-----

Where would we put Toby West speculatively in the West family? I will try to take a look in English records, you never know.

----

I don't understand why John of Stafford d 1716 supposedly passed on the 500 Toby West grant in his estate - or how he could have. I didn't see it in the will (I posted a link to the will transcript above). The land went to Joseph Croshaw and then to his daughter Unity. So it could easily have then passed to say John West lll. But never to Cpt John / Stafford John. Unless they bought it.

This should be a resource in a geni project

See also all Virginia Land Patents from Cavaliers & Pioneers by Marion Nell Nugent 
in spreadsheet format for sorting all significant data.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kl3NQvvVBWeUVhlhXTIJa325b_I...

I was going for a devil's advocate kind of argument here, but it gets muddy in places. Not nearly as clean as Erica's summary.

What I'm primarily thinking about is this. It's a common feature of deeds of this period that the tracts are sold and bequeathed intact unless it says "500 acres part of a tract of 1000 of acres granted ...". That was part of creating the chain of title, something that happens in the background for the people of the time, even though we've often lost the record today.

To me, this is very strong circumstantial evidence that the 500 acre tract bequeathed by Maj John West is probably the 500 acre tract granted to Toby West, not part of the 1000 acre tract granted to Gov West.

(Of course, it could be a 500 acre tract granted to someone else and acquired by the Wests under a conveyance that's lost to us. In that case, we won't find it except through a project that looks at all grants and conveyances in the area.)

Putting the Croshaw assignment into context. Easy to see how the Wests in that area could have ended up with Toby's grant. Then they have a separate parcel that came from one of their relatives originally. They decide to give it to Maj. John West. Why? He must be close kin, but how? Son of Toby? Son of Col John? Son of Cockacoeske?

> Where would we put Toby West speculatively in the West family? I will try to take a look in English records, you never know.

One thing that stands out about the name Toby is that it is not a West name. The English and Virginia Wests are big on mainstream English names. At this period, Toby was a low class name. It had connotations of a "fat, jolly, bumpkin". It was a euphemism for the butt. Later it was a favorite for giving Indians and slaves.

Hard to imagine an English gentry family choosing the name Toby at this period. On the other hand, it's easy to imagine one of them ending up with an illegitimate son named Toby.

The entire estate, intact, of Joseph Crowshaw, was inherited by his daughter Unity. There is no separate Toby West 500 acres after 1659.

" In 1687 "Poplar Neck" was sold by West "and Unity his wife" to Edmund Jenings, who renamed it "Ripon Hall". "Notes and Queries", William and Mary Quarterly, Vol. 2, No. 4"

http://files.usgwarchives.net/va/schools/wmmary/quarterly/v02n4/pg2...

Re:.To me, this is very strong circumstantial evidence that the 500 acre tract bequeathed by Maj John West is probably the 500 acre tract granted to Toby West, not part of the 1000 acre tract granted to Gov West.

Someone needs to show me this in the Maj John West will. There is no separate 500 acres.

There is no separate Toby West 500 acres after 1659.

> Yes, there is. We know that because we know the conveyancing practices of the time. There is a "Toby West" tract, even though it no longer belongs to Toby West. It belongs first to the Croshaws, then back to the Wests.

> Someone needs to show me this in the Maj John West will.

You've linked to it yourself.
https://www.ancestry.com/boards/localities.northam.usa.states.virgi...

It says, "I give grant and bequeath to my loving son, John West, all my lands and real estate . . . Likewise 500 acres at Pumunky, likewise . . . ."

This is also the piece you quoted earlier that is now included in the John West, of Stafford County, Gent. profile.

"John also gives to his son, John 500 acres of land on the PAMUNKEY RIVER. THIS IS IMPORTANT AS THIS PAMUNKEY LAND WAS ORIGINALLY GRANTED TO GOVERNOR JOHN WEST IN 1653 WHICH VIRTUALLY PROVES DESCENT FROM GOVERNOR JOHN WEST OR AT LEAST A FAMILY RELATIONSHIP INTO THE WEST OR DELAWARE WEST FAMILY. "

* http://www.colonial-settlers-md-va.us/getperson.php?personID=I07789...