Col. John West of West Point, Virginia - @Colonel John West II

Looks like John West of Northumberland County was the son of Anthony West

https://books.google.com/books?id=ExYaAAAAIAAJ&lpg=PA65&ots...

Here's some interesting perspective from the Wests of Virginia website. Unfortunately, the website just peripheral to the Wests that interest us so these ideas aren't developed further.

> "Cockacoeske’s son John West has been posited by some as the husband of Elizabeth Gilliam, but this is not likely, as in June 1678 he and his mother described his wife as a Pamunkey Indian."

Would love to find more about that.

> "Totopotomoi is thought by some to be the same person as Thomas “Toby” West, son of Rachel Powhatan, who was a cousin of Pocahontas,[51],[52] and Thomas West, third Lord De La Warr. However, there is no documentation to prove these relationships. If true, Cockacoeske would herself have been a West, and it would possibly explain why she signed documents with what appeared to be a crude “W”."

Some think. Citation is to Wikipedia and Shawnee Roots.

> The relationships are convoluted, but it is known that Totopotomoi married his first cousin Cockacoeske. After Totopotomoi’s death in 1656, Cockacoeske had an illegitimate son named John West. A colonist described West in 1676 as a “stripling twenty years of age…and the reputed son of an English colonel,” the latter thought by historians to be former Governor John West.

We already knew it, but this makes it fairly explicit. John West is thought to be a son of someone other than Totopotomoi because Totopotomoi died in 1656 and John was born in 1657 (age 20 in 1677). I'd say that's cutting it too closely. Too easy to weave any story you want. John could be a posthumous son, and perhaps his mother's favorite because he is the last reminder she has of her dead husband.

Further, this bit contains another important point of reference. The idea John West might be son of an English colonel goes back to 1676.

http://www.westsofvirginia.com/?page_id=52

Need to bail for a few hours. Back later.

Re: If true, Cockacoeske would herself have been a West, and it would possibly explain why she signed documents with what appeared to be a crude “W”."

In 1676 an Indian lady of royal descent & matriarchal culture, and tribal leader in her own right, duly elected, is taking on her late husband's pictograph, which he is not known to have used? Really?

Could the /W her son John West used is a sign based on her sign, and not be for the name West at all?

In 1677 her son John West was said, among the English, to have been the son of an English Colonel. So who said it? I would expect that was part of Cornelius Dabney's job. :)

Here's Elizabeth Maybury I added her West children to the tree.

I had seen something about Indian John having an Indian wife who ran away and returned to her own tribe (Mattapony?). I'll see if I can track down the (letter?) this story comes from.

Chowanoke Tribal Historians say that Maj. John West of Glouchestor came to Chowan Co in 1694. They followed the trail of two "Indian" John Wests, both removing from the Chowanoke to NC and they were two different "Indian" John Wests. --Justiin Petrone and verified by Southern Tuscororan enrollee who collaborated with Justin on their John Wests projects.

https://books.google.com/books?id=o1MgHKSi5NgC&lpg=PA265&vq... page 256 Powhatan's Mantle: Indians in the Colonial Southeast
edited by Gregory A. Waselkov, Peter H. Wood, M. Thomas Hatley

(paraphrase) Cockacoeske's letter of grievances, June 5, 1678. Included is that the Chickahominy's were harboring her son's runaway Pamunkey wife.

Riana do they know where he was & what he was doing between 1678 and 1694? I'm going to guess he was with his mother's people until her death.

Her June 29 1678 letter on page 402 here

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/4243472.pdf

That is correct. Justin Petrone said the so called "troublesome" Cumberland Indians started leaving Pamunkey Neck for NC in waves from the "pan Algonquian" resettlement area of New Kent and I am also guessing it had something to do with tighter laws on NA apprenticeship til age 21 and that is why Forest Hazel, Historian for the Nottoway Native Tribes had a lot on that subject matter.

Apparently she won against the Chickahominy

https://archive.org/stream/virginiamagazine23bruc#page/302/mode/1up

Re "Was the husband of Elizabeth Gilliam involved in Bacon’s Rebellion?"
The Wests of Virginia article mentioned by Justin omits further description of the father of the Henry and William West that are mentioned in this article. The Petition for Pardon by Henry West stated that they were fighting against the Indians who had killed their father.. There is no record of Henry West returning to Virginia but his brother William came out of hiding and married Rebeca Bracewell and had a large family in Isle of Wight. These were sons of Nathaniel West and Elizabeth Jordan, grandsons of Capt Nathaniel West d1623 and Frances Hinton Greville of Charles City. Their de la Warre standing probably helped in obtaining their pardon.

Looks like they need to be added to the geni tree. Here's the 2nd Nathaniel

Nathaniel West, Jr.

I don't know that we have "answers". But I certainly have a lot more understanding. Thank you.

It's becoming clear that Toby West was probably not Totopotomoi.

The piece that is confusing me most is the relationship of
John West, of Stafford County, Gent.
John West, of Northumberland County

Was the John West who married Susannah Pearson the same John West who was son of Susannah Cocke? How can they be if Susannah Pearson's husband held property at this death that formerly belonged to Gov. West, but Susannah Cocke's husband belonged to an entirely different family?

Going up the tree for John West, of Northumberland County - wow, those English locations are flying carpets. Cambridgeshire, Yorkshire, Buckinghamshire ... I remember thinking the isle of Ely might have been acquired from a wife; and some of the Virginia property ascribed to him from another John West.

Now it would be really interesting to find out if Indian John West (I've seen him as Capt in records but not so far as Major) had any Virginia property.

Also, who was Toby West? Could he have been Thomas West?

Anyone that uses WIKIpedia as a source is foolish

using Wikipedia is like being drunker then Peter O'tool on his birthday

Yes, and no. Trusting Wikipedia is foolish, but using Wikipedia -- ah, that's a very different story.

Wikipedia is very useful for its citations and sources. It's essentially a measure of what someone can get away with saying without starting an edit war. The Talk tab is useful to see if there's been any of that.

For very famous people and historical figures, it's also helpful to check the different versions in other languages, as well. You'll often find that the French and German versions are different from each other and from the English.

A wonderful romp, but not evidence or proof just by itself.

Re: Major John West died 1716

Since he has a good descent line, do we have any Y DNA test results?

Also this might be a wild thought so don't shoot me. I've noticed there's ambiguity about Col. John West's wife Unity Crowshaw & their children's birth dates, including an alternative name for her of Ursula, and a question raised whether the Col. didn't have 2 wives. This major John had 2 John sons (??) & we've already seen [perhaps !] a family pattern of naming multiple sons John.

Another thought is to look closer at the Thomas / Toby West people.

> Also, who was Toby West? Could he have been Thomas West?

I'm cautious here. Toby isn't a usual nickname for Thomas. In every case I know it's a nickname for Tobias. Granted, there can always be idiosyncratic usages that don't fall within the normal spectrum. I once knew a Mike whose real name was Miles not Michael.

I think it's a jump, although it's a jump many people have taken here.

It looks like this discussion is running out of steam because there turned out to be no easy answers. Before we all wander away it would be nice to reach some decisions about what we want to do with these profiles on Geni.

Re: Major John West died 1716

He's in that Group 7b on the West DNA site as "John West abt 1650". One sample.

> "W108 was added to this group on 28 Octbober 2006. He matches W19 on 25 of 25 markers. The oldest ancestor of W108 is "Major" John West who was born in Virginia about 1650. John married first Susannah (Sarah) PEARSON, and second to Elizabeth Simmes TURLEY. "Major" John WEST died in Stafford County, Virginia, and his will was probated on 13 February 1716 (OS)/1717 (NS)."

http://web.utk.edu/~corn/westdna/west5.htm#FG7

His yDNA is different from Group 22, which seems to be the Gov. West group. That supports the idea he might belong to this other West family, as a son of John West and Susannah Cocke.

However, I'm deeply troubled by the claims made earlier that his will leaves property that formerly belonged to Gov. John West or Toby West.

I haven't seen any vetting for that but if true it would mean we need a much closer look.

> a question raised whether the Col. didn't have 2 wives

This is a piece I don't understand. There is a frequent interchange or confusion between the names Unity and Ursula in the 17th century, and not only in Virginia.

Not sure why. It might have something to do with the fact that Ursula was a saint and her name is therefore a Christian name, while Unity is a Puritan-style invention.

Can't find her now, but somewhere lurking the background here is an Indian woman about this time or a bit earlier who is also Unity slash Ursula.

We could go through a pull out all the contemporary references to Col.West's wife to see what we get.

Re: However, I'm deeply troubled by the claims made earlier that his will leaves property that formerly belonged to Gov. John West or Toby West.

Thank you, I had meant to extract that. Are we sure this property was this John West? Is it possible it passed through a wife, or he bought it?

M

Bing.

https://books.google.com/books?id=7LIqjJ4Q3nAC&pg=PA221&lpg...

GENERATIONS: A Thousand-Year Family History By Ralph Sanders with Carole Sanders Peg

(paraphrase) the Toby West land of 1654 was sold in 1659 to Joseph Croshaw.

Was Toby West then a brother of Gov West?

This is from the Graves Family Association:

http://www.gravesfa.org/gen270-Atteberry.htm

8. That same date and in same area on Mattaponi River Toby West received a patent of 500 acres for the transport of 10 persons. 

This tract was also patented on 27May1654 and in the same area on the northeast side of the Mattapony.  The identity of Toby West is unknown, but given the matching dates and locations, it is likely that Toby West was a kinsman of Colonel John West Sr.  On 8Jun1659 Major Joseph Croshaw filed a patent for this same 500 acres, abutting Thomas Saunders.  However, in the Croshaw patent the land was described as being on the southeast side of the Mettapony [sic].  Sometime between 27May1654 and 8Jun1659 Toby West assigned this tract to Joseph Croshaw, who filed a patent due for the transport of ten persons, incluing Cuthbert Chroshaw [sic] and Noy Chroshaw.  Presumably, these Chroshaws were kinsmen of Joseph Croshaw.  There is record of an intermarriage between members of the Croshaw and Noy families in England, from whom Noy Croshaw presumably descended.

In other words:

- there was no Toby West patent to descend to Wests, it went to the Croshaws
- Toby West was a kinsman (brother, cousin ....) of Gov. West. He witnesses a document, he buys a lot next door.
- he sells out of Virginia in 1659, he's not dead on that date. Returned to England? On to Barbados?

Do we make a profile for him to avoid confusion or make a note somewhere so the property isn't chased?

The Toby West 300 acre patent was inherited by his wife Cockacoeske and was past down to her son Maj John West. This is the first 300 tract that he names in his Will.

This will?

https://www.ancestry.com/boards/localities.northam.usa.states.virgi...

> The Toby West 300 acre patent was inherited by his wife Cockacoeske and was past down to her son Maj John West. This is the first 300 tract that he names in his Will.

This version makes no sense to me, given what we see elsewhere.

If we say Maj John is the man whose 1716 will we're looking at, then he can't be the same as the man who was son of John West and Susannah Cocke. We also have the problem of the DNA ressults of the family that claims descent from the John of the 1716 will. They don't match the DNA results of the Governor's claimed descendants.

Along the same lines, the 1716 will specifically says he purchased that tract from William Green.

The tract I'm concerned is different. It's the "500 acres at Pumunky". Other researchers have said this was part of the 1653 grant to Gov. West. I don't know the basis for that statement. On a superficial reading it would seem more likely it was the 500 acre tract granted to Toby West the same day.

If I read the GFA footnote correctly, Toby West was granted the tract for transporting 10 persons to the colony.

I am guessing this is from Dorman's Adventures of Purse & Person.

Is there such a thing as a Pamunkey leader granted land as a head right ?