Col. John West of West Point, Virginia - @Colonel John West II

I will say I was thinking that "my sonne John West" faced a choice to stay in the Pamunkey world or join the European world. And he signaled that choice when he refused to speak English at the treaty signing although supposedly he knew it. He deferred to his mother although I think the English tried to "seduce" him with the fancy clothes & all.

Supposedly she had over 100 warriors available in 1777 and grudgingly allowed 12 to fight for the English.

I've been looking and not finding. Either he died, or he's another John we know under another name.

The Findagrave chronology cites William Deyo, official Pamunkey tribal historian, as saying, "The more that I search, the more that I find items in support of Leonard's (West's) theory (that Joseph West was a son of Cockacoeske and half brother of Maj. John West). Note that Joseph West was at one time a resident of Stafford Co., VA, and was associated with Maj. John West, formerly "Capt. John West" who appeared in Stafford by 1678 and was, I am convinced by overwhelming evidence, the same Capt. John West who was the illegitimate son of Cockacoeske, Queen of Pamunkey, by John West, son of Gov. John West (brother of Thomas West, Lord De la Warr)." (Dec. 6, 1998.)

Then Findagrave transitions smoothly into the career of Maj. John West, of Stafford County, beginning with "1686-1715 He purchased and obtained Northern Neck land grants amounting to over 2000 acres in present day Fairfax County and Alexandria Virginia living at his plantation "West Grove".

But it seems Indian John and John from Northern Neck are competing candidates for Maj. John. On the whole, it seems John from Northern Neck might be more likely to be the John who obtained Northern Neck grants. And, while Findagrave then turns to "1692 - selected as a Stafford Justice and designated the Secretary for the Stafford County Court." that also seems like a likely next step for a Northern Neck family. Because, geography.

And a random thought -- if Maj. John of Stafford County was from Northern Neck, and if perhaps Indian John left no issue, that would go a long ways to making sense of the DNA data.

If there is no known issue of Indian John and no known record of him after 1677, then you have clean male descent lines from Stafford John and John West lll to compare.

Is it FindAGrave that said Unity left Col John over Cockacoeske? That doesn't make sense unless they renewed an old acquaintance, because their liason (if they had one) was some years before his marriage.

Also, if Gov. John was Toby's father, I'm having trouble with Cockacoeske being a guest wife for her father in law, even if it was after Toby's death. Which she was still upset about a dozen years later.

Found William Deyo's 1998 letter

http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/west/2074/

Good stuff. Some thoughts --

I've seen different chronologies. Lots of sites say Col. John had a liaison with Cockacoeske when he was estranged from Unity (and perhaps that's what caused the problems between them). On the other hand, a significant number of sites put the relationship much earlier, before his marriage.

That last seems to make more sense, but in all of this I see only stories embroidered over the generations. These aren't based in tradition (probably), nor in researched sources. They''re just stories.

Then, on Toby -- he's supposed to have been son of Thomas West (3rd baron), not of the governor. The governor was a brother of Thomas.

So Toby would have been a nephew of the governor, and therefore a 1st cousin of Col. John. Guest wife for her husband's cousin? Doesn't seem so unlikely.

But I think it seems unlikely Toby was a West at all. Call me a wild-eyed heretic, I'm just not seeing it. Wikipedia says only "Totopotomoi was known to the English settlers as "Toby West," and thought to be the son of "Rachel" Powhattan, cousin of Pocahontas, and Thomas West, third Lord de la Warr." No sources.

Nor have I found any sources in any of the other tellings. Thought to be? By whom? First documented at what date?

The story that is circulating online is that when Pocahontas was taken to England in 1616 as the wife of John Rolfe, one of the Powhatans who went with her was her cousin (or sister) Rachel. When they reached England, they were entertained in English society. Rachel caught the eye of Baron de la Warr (Thomas West), Her baby by him, born in England, was christened Toby West. Then mother and child returned to Virginia in 1617, Pocahontas dying at the outset of the voyage.

All very romantic. And what luck that Toby West just happens to be happens to be tied into the grand story of Pocahontas, the first recorded instance of an Indian-White marriage in the English colonies. Not only is Toby king of the Pamunkey, but he also has a drop of Powhatan royal blood. And look, Rachel did better than Pocahontas. Pocahontas married a commoner, but Rachel snagged herself a baron. And not just any baron, but a more recent baron than the governor's father to boot.

I'm not buying it. At least not without some very early and unequivocal source.

It seems to me more likely that Toby West obtained his English name in some arbitrary way. It's clear the English struggled with how to assign surnames to the Indians. They didn't actually need surnames until they came within the orbit of the colonists and needed to sign something. I wouldn't be surprised if Toby got his name as his baptism, Toby as a Christian equivalent of Totopotomoi, and West perhaps from his godfather's name.

.

After reading William Deyo's 1998 letter, I'll add IF Toby ever actually had the surname West, and that's not just a later addition for clarity.

The land grant to Toby West, 1654.

Another reference to it:

https://books.google.com/books?id=-9hCDsaagZQC&pg=PA177&lpg...

Virginia County Records, Volume 7 edited by William Armstrong Crozier page 177

Gloucester County, Book 3

10. Capt. John West, 1654, 1000
10. Toby West, 1654, 500

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Which Capt West? It's before Cockacoeske's son was born. These grants are next to each other. I would have thought to brothers.

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There was an analysis that Cockacoeske signed with a wavy W as part of the family of Toby West.

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As I understand surname acquisition, native tribes used idiosyncratic & perhaps punning reasons for their choices. For example, Little for someone tall. West for someone they admired. Or as the opposite of "we came from the East.". Oh, and also, a W looks like a pictograph for water, and we're water people ....

In other words, without knowing, one cannot assume why the name was chosen.

Although I would vote for Cockacoeske knowing all about Baron de la Warr & choosing the name for her son for that reason.

So who ended up with those 1500 acres on the Mattapony River?

History of West Point VA article. Were these patents near to the home Gov John built in 1654? Why would an Indian leader get a grant in an area being developed for a town? Indians had left the ever. In other words, why do we think Toby West equals Totopotomoi at all?

http://www.kingwilliamhistory.org/publications/west_point.pdf?AttrI...

From http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/WEST/1998-01/0884066069

Old New Kent Co, Some Accounts of ??, ?? Places in Kent Co.
Malcom H. Harris

3. The West Plantation

The peninsula formed by the Mattapony and Pamunkey Rivers emptying into the
York River is unique. This was known in colonial times? because of the Indian
Towns, which, by the Treaty of 1646 ????? the Powhatan Confederacy, forbid the
English settling within the Indian Ring, a three mile limit of the towns.
(Hening, Statutes at Large, Vol. 1, page 225)

In 1652, Capt. John West, Esq., a Councillor of State, was patented 850 acres
of land lying at the tip of the peninsula and winding up the Pamunkey River,
and a year later, in 1653, he was patented an additional 3,000 acres of land
which lay next to the other patent. These two grants of land invested the
lower part of the peninsula, below Cypress Swamp, maddegum Creek, and a line
which ran from its headwater to the Mattapony river.

Capt. John West Esq: 850 acres at the mouth of the Narrowes of the York
River, being a neck of land on the north side of the York River, to a creek
called tanks Maddegums, toward the Mattapony, on the east, and down Armoteague
Creek, which empties into the Mattapony, 3 July 1652. (Patent Book 3, page
93)

Capt. John West Esq: one of the Council of State ver and southwest side of the Mattapony, beginning at the mounth of tanks Maddegums running up the main branch of same to Warranuncock path & to the mounth of a creek beneath the ancient Indian Ferry on Mattapony river, and thence down the river to the point of severing the
Mattapony from York River. (Patent Book 3, page 291)

This large tract composed the West Plantation, and when Capt. John West
(1590-1659) died, it passed to his son, John West (1632-1692), who kept the
bounds intact during his lifetime, and when he died in the Spring of 1692, he
devised the landed estate by will and confirmed several deeds of gift which he
had made to his sons and grandsons. The West Point land descended to his
oldest son, John West. (9 Hening, Vol. 6, page 428)

Comparing signatures from court records is not accurate. In most cases the actual document filed is copied into the record book by the County Clerk or one of his assistants and the original document then returned to its owner. Sometimes the owner was present and signed the court register but most of the time, depending upon the Clerks other duties, the actual copying into the register was not done on the spot, but several days later with signatures done by the Clerk.

Another brief description of the 1654 patent

https://books.google.com/books?id=t2LQI2FlB60C&pg=PA125&lpg...

Records of Colonial Gloucester County, Virginia, Volume 1 By Mason page 125

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Capt John West here = Gov. John. I don't understand who the Toby West listed & why an Indian leader would have this land he didn't occupy or pass on and that was part of the town of West Point.

What I took away from the signature comparison point was that "John West, my sonn" did not write in English. Supposedly he understood English as did his mother but there is not a record of him speaking it, I don't think. Their communications were through Cockacoeske's interpreter, Cornelius Dabney.

Rev. Hawte Wyatt makes an appearance ...

From http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/WYATT/2002-04/1017720727

TEXT OF MANUSCRIPT written October 26, 1655

This day Pindavako the Protector of the young King of Chiskoyack was at my house
intending to have spoken with . . . (the) . . . Governor . . . (illegible) . . .
then expected to be heer'd but hee came not, & therefore hee desyred to leave his
mind with mee Maior Will Wiatt, & divers others, as followeth viz. That.
Wassatickon the late King had freely given unto Mr. Edward Wyatt and his heyres,
executors administrators or assigns, all the land from Mr. Hugh Gwinns old marked
trees to Vttamarke Creek, including all Pyn(katack) Chiskoyack Land, being freely
given with the consent of all the rest of the Indians. it (sic) was also agreed
among them all that neither the King nor any other of his Indians should sell,
alienate or dispose, of any land belonging unto them without the Consent of Mr.
Ed: Wyatt which the Gover therewith in the behalfe of Mr. Ed: Wyat as wee heere
doe testiefy under our hands this present 29th October 1655.

The marke
of John
West

William Wiatt

O John West junior

C
Pindavako
Protector of
the Toby
West
young King of
Chiskayake
The marke W of

William Godfrey
Signed & Delivered in the presence
of all whose names are The
marke of IB
heere Subscribed
John Talbutt

The marke IK of

John King

This is easier to read the signature layout. "text of manuscript shown in frontispiece"

https://books.google.com/books?id=t2LQI2FlB60C&pg=PR5&lpg=P...

Records of Colonial Gloucester County, Virginia, Volume 1 By Mason page v

Yes, old deed books are usually transcribed copies of the original but that doesn't make them inaccurate for signatures if someone signed with a mark. Copyists often preserved the identifying features of the mark (large, squiggly, tilted, serifs, etc.) As well, the LS might in the original have had an actual seal.

What I thought was worth pursuing is the land grants to Capt. John West and Toby West. A quick glance shows the book was not compiled chronologically. Grants from 1652 to 1654 are mingled together.

https://books.google.com/books?id=-9hCDsaagZQC&pg=PA177&lpg...

It would a bit less interesting if John's and Toby's grants were not made at the same time but we already knew from the Findagrave article they were made the same day. Confirmed that in Records of Colonial Gloucester County, Virginia, Volume 1 By Mason:

https://books.google.com/books?id=t2LQI2FlB60C&pg=PA124&lpg...

This adds the detail that Capt. John's grant was on the NE side of the Mattapony River but says nothing about Toby's. I found a reference to Toby's here, also NE side of the Mattaponi River:

http://www.vikingsandvirginians.com/2015/04/06/selected-17th-centur...

This extract says, "27 May 1654 – Tobey West, grantee; Land grant, Gloucester County. Description: 500 acres on the north east side of Mattaponi River and ___ north side of Thomas Sanders’ land. Source: Land Office Patents No. 3, 1652-1655, p. 10, Reel 2 (Library of Virginia). Cavaliers & Pioneers, Vol. 1, p. 232. (PB3:10)."

It would be nice to also have bounds or at least one boundary for the John West grant, but I couldn't find a full transcription online of either one.

Here the name is spelled Tobey. That doesn't affect the reliability but it does tell us the other sources that report this grant are doing a bit of standardizing.

Because Col. John West married Unity Croshaw in 1654, it's worth noting there are also grants to her father Joseph Croshaw mentioned here. 1646 for 700 acres on the Charles River "for the importation of 14 persons", including Thomas Sanders. And 1659 for 500 acres on the north east side of Mattapony River, and on the north side of Thomas Sanders.

Nothing new in any of this but it all hangs together.

We've confirmed that there was a person named Toby West.

- In 1654 he's associated with John West by land grant received the same day
- in 1655 he witnessed a document signed by John West

Is this the same person killed in battle in 1656? Why would anyone think so?

Also you got a marriage date for Unity of 1654? I had the impression it was later. If Indian John West was born 1656 ish then she would have reason to be annoyed by that name.

> I don't understand who the Toby West listed & why an Indian leader would have this land he didn't occupy or pass on and that was part of the town of West Point.

There's an easy explanation that would fit -- they were trying to turn him into an English planter like themselves.

I'm currently reading a fascinating book. White Trash: The 400-Year Untold History of Class in America. The early chapters contradict the glorious settlement of America narrative and focus on the exploitation of disposable Indians, Blacks, and white trash English. There is a bit about the harsh regime of Gov. Berkeley and the reasons for Bacon's Rebellion.

It seems possible the English planters tried to lure Toby West into becoming a planter himself, and using his tribe the way other planters used indentured servants. Also possible Toby's grant was the site of a Pamunky village and this was one way of enforcing a settlement line around it, while at the same time tempting Toby with a privatization of tribal lands.

Would be interesting to read more on this subject.

Forgot to mention above that in the same area there is a 1659 grant to Nathaniel Bacon (uncle of the rebel) for 300 acres on the North East side of Mattaponi River Beg. &c. on the Southernmost corner of Thomas Sanders’ land, with a S. S. East line unto Arrakioco swamp.

http://www.vikingsandvirginians.com/2015/04/06/selected-17th-centur...

Gov. John West and Toby West were neighbors of the Bacons.

Remembering that early Virginians used the rivers for transportation, we're looking at a significant settlement pattern in this area.

Geni has marriage date of 4 November 1654 for Col. John West and Unity Croshaw. The land grants to John and Toby were 27 May 1654, less than 6 months earlier.

The birthdate for Capt. John West (son of Cockacoeske) is circa 1657 (strapping lad of 20 at the treaty signing in 1677).

We don't know whether these people actually lived on these grants, or if they did we don't know when they moved there, but this little slice of geography makes it very plausible that Capt. John West was the son of Col. John West by Toby West's wife Cockacoeske, which is where we started this journey. Or Capt. John West was son of Toby. Either way.

Something to keep in the back of our minds is that Capt. John's age might have been manipulated a bit for political reasons. When they tell us he was about 20 it would have been clear to his contemporaries that this means he was not yet 21, not yet able to act for himself, but almost. His signature would mean far less if he was really 16 or 18 but if he was 21 he would have been able to act independently of his mother. At 20 he could have been pressured to sign because his mother did, even if he disagreed. Probably nothing. Probably irrelevant. But worth noting.

Toby West signed the deed for Indian Land 1655 in a nice script

https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/49309/FLHG_RecsColGloucesterCn...

I'll try to download / upload.

Is there any reason to believe Totopotomoi (born 1617 according to Wikipedia) wrote English?

I had the same thoughts about Indian John West's age. He was still in his legal minority but appeared close enough to it to be worth cultivating as the next leader. Was he flattered with a title of Captain or did he actually have it in the English forces? Was he a working warrior for Cockacoeske ?

For what it's worth, Shawnee Heritage has the marriage of Totopotomoi & Cockacoeske as not until 1647, and a bunch of children by an earlier wife, including a Toby Jr (killed at Bloody Run) and a Major John West who married Susannah Pearson.

https://books.google.com/books?id=CaNCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA151&lpg...

Oh hey Rianna was thinking the same way, here's the document with Toby West's signature:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000062479270823&

Interesting that Toby can sign his name. Even other English were using marks here.

> Was he flattered with a title of Captain or did he actually have it in the English forces?

Or -- just thinking out loud -- was he a captain because they hoped he would recruit and lead a company of Indian troops?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/1920249.pdf

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1920249 1901

Correction to page 66:

Major John 3 West, son of John 2 West, and grandson of John 1 West, of Northumberland County, and Susanna Pearson his wife, (daughter of Thomas Pearson and Susanna Bland his wife), married ...

Indeed about the signature! This is why I'm having trouble that he equals Totopotomoi. In the 1677 treaty there are (fairly elaborate actually) pictograph signatures for the Indian leaders.