Odinkar "den store" Tokesen, Biskop - Dispute regarding father Val-Toke

Started by Mike Stangel on Thursday, June 15, 2017
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Ulf, I've shown you the other theories. You won't read them. It doesn't do any good to keep presenting them for you to ignore.

Where you are very wrong is that you think history can be written by choosing the theory you think makes the most sense. Wrong. That's subjectivity at its worst.

To choose among competing theories you have to meet a much higher standard. You have to show that none of the other theories are even plausible. Yours can only win if it is the only one that makes any kind of sense of the material.

You have not met this burden. You're not even trying to meet this burden. You are just repetitively showing that your theory would work, and at the same time ignoring the other theories.

When I get home tonight I'll write about one piece of the different theories. Winland. I think this will be a good example of how you are failing to account for subjectivity.

I want to call out this comment in particular. You said:

> Anette's "there was several of people named Toke in this time", doesn't fit my definition of an opponent theory.

Yes, Ulf. It most certainly fits as an opponent theory. In fact, it's the most intellectually honest of the theories because it puts the focus where it belongs. Truly, we can't be sure of any answer because we can't be sure we've identified all the different Tokes or that we've sorted them correctly.

"I want to call out this comment in particular. You said:

> Anette's "there was several of people named Toke in this time", doesn't fit my definition of an opponent theory.

Yes, Ulf. It most certainly fits as an opponent theory. In fact, it's the most intellectually honest of the theories because it puts the focus where it belongs. Truly, we can't be sure of any answer because we can't be sure we've identified all the different Tokes or that we've sorted them correctly."

But that is garbage! That would be the same to say that in 1700 there existed a lot of Anders, we can't know if that Andersson belonged to that Anders, of course we can, by ruling out the other Anders that lived elsewhere, had other wives, children, their occupations, approximately when they lived etc, we can rule out almost all of the other Anders, but best of all, we do not have to count them all in.

As demonstrated very clearly, Odinkar sat as a bishop 1005, he must have been adult, likely born at a minimum before ca. 980, more likely, in the middle of 970's.
Thereby we can rule out all the Toke's born after 980, 100% guaranteed!

Toke must have been of age when he became father, thus minimum ca. 15 years, old, so if we concentrate on the ca. date that his son was born, the father must have been born before 965, but more likely again, before 960. We can thereby rule out all other Toke's born after ca. 960.

It is assumed that Gorm was dead 958 and that he ruled from 936-958, which correlates to tradition and archaeological findings, it is also assumed that his son Harald ruled from 958-986, Gorm ruled in Jelling, at Jutland, = Jylland, if our Toke was related to the kings in Jylland, we thus have only one family who ruled there between 936-986, a range that well cover a Toke born before ca. 960 and since we do know that he was a jarl, he would very likely have been a son to a king, because that was the tradition. The only other mentioned candidate with this high rank, would have been Sigtrygg Gnupasson who perhaps died 940. Hypothetically he could have had children, but that would surely be speculative to create them as we don't know.

The only other candidate are Palnatoke, a jarl in Vendsyssel 956, but he originated from Fyn, not Jylland, he has no known connection to the royal familes in Jylland, unless his fathers fathers father were related to Harald klak or his sons, of which we do not know anything. Some has theorized that Tyra, Gorm's wife belonged to that branch, if so, Palnatoke and Gorm would have been cousins.

Other theorize that Tyra was a daughter of an English king, Ethelred, that has been hard to verify chronological so right now, she has no parents at all. ( I can name the most likely real father, yes).

Faced with what we do actually know, there's only one candidate left to set up as Odinkar's father, all the talk about none existing or could have been and clearly undocumented other possibilities becomes redundant.

All your talk about intellectual honesty is nothing but dishonesty as you rather rely on none existing possibilities than contemporary named real persons, as in this case, Toke jarl who died at Fyrivall ca. 980-985 and as he had a son who died with him, he was guaranteed 100% born before 960, likely he was born after 940 which in turn fits the sources.

Maybe there should exist a course in genealogical math, meaning, people learns how to understand consequences of the chain father, son, and the minimal number of years we have to take in consideration, compared to different standard sets both worldwide and thru history, with a consideration taking to each separate culture?

> The only other candidate are ...

This is where you go wrong. You assume all possible Tokes are known. It's a fatal mistake and one that runs through every part of your argument.

> 1700 there existed a lot of Anders ...

This is a straw-man argument. Do you know that term? It's a logical fallacy where you misrepresent someone's position in order to argue against it.

This is where you go wrong Justin.

I accept plausible profiles on Geni, unless they are proven false, created by a known genealogist falsifier, created in the purpose to just glorify some families line.

You don't accept any plausible profiles.

In this very case, none of the mentioned lines goes further than 1000's. There are no descendants affected in modern days.

No one can gain anything by letting these line be intact, accept the cultural value to be able to see him connected in the tree, knowing that he perhaps was a distant long ago relative.

You destroy this for not me, but for us all by cutting just because you can. I have argued that as long as the profile are connected, it should be stated that the line is plausible, but not verified. If and only then, new evidence that talks against that connection, it can be either moved or cut off.

It's quite obvious that we now live in a time of revisionist, people who believes that if we can't 100% sure prove a relation, then the relation is false. Some of you even seems to compete with each other as a sport, so whats the prize? A more stable and correct tree, or you feeling proud of having performed today's good deed, or is it just about the one who cuts most wins?

Do I have to clarify this more, or will you just select a quote from this text to try again to undermine logic in favor for nonsense?

And please, quote in, even if that would be repeating an existing text, where it shows how another Toke actually fits the whole picture, known or unknown.

I wish I'd been monitoring this discussion closely enough to cut it off after Justin wrote this:

> The burden of proof is always on the person proposing an answer. That's you,
> not Anette. I don't think you can come up with primary sources that no one
> else has seen, but maybe you can ;)
>
> If you can't do that, you need to come up with an academic citation from
> an expert writing within, say the past 10 years, that says "the majority of
> modern experts accept this connection even though the evidence isn't
> perfect". Anything short of that and you're just dealing with opinions
> and theories. I've looked for something like that. Haven't found a
> thing except disagreement.

That's really the bottom line. I believe Anette was justified in making the cut in accordance with what most recognized experts in the field now believe. In cases where such a cut will be contentious, I do believe a discussion is in order. We've now had that discussion (ad nauseam) and there's no new information that's going to be brought to the discussion at this time. I hope we'll revisit it if new information is found or if the general consensus among experts trends back towards Ulf's theory, but until then I think the matter should be considered closed.

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