Odinkar "den store" Tokesen, Biskop - Dispute regarding father Val-Toke

Alex, Thank you for asking. I'm not sure. I would just capitulate to Mike and all the other curators who have come to a consensus and are more well versed in this area. Much more than me. Truthfully, this issue doesn't matter to me which way it ends up. It just bothered me to see some things, that from an outside view, looked to me, to be getting personal instead of the great work that everyone does here.

I am always learning things in these discussions. So for that, THANKS guys!

As to the one that merged the two profiles together

Jarl i Vendsyssel, Kung Toke "Valtoke" Jelling Gormsen was merged into Val -Toke Gormsen by Alex Moes ©.

Vlearly not the only one that have been working on the profile.

As for the Lawæts theory. I suggest you all look to the discussion under Gorm the Old. Here it was extensively discussed the plausability of Lawæts compared to actual historical sorces.
The conclusion was that it is a theory among many and also a very disputed one at that.
He tend to leap to conclusions that in no way can be validated.
As for his ideers of that of Jarl and KIng Justin is right.

As for the Rune stones. There is nothing to support the runestone as evidense in this case. Theories have been forward that Toke Gormsen was son of Gorm the old. Only he is not mentioned in the sagas as such.
There is no doubt that Toke Gormsen was a man of importens but it is not the firering gun that can connect him with the danish royal house.
As for reasont an extremely wealthy grave was found north of Jelling, Skanderborg to be excact. The find is from the same timefra as that of Gorm. We do not know who they where, nor there connection to the royal house, nor a name linked to them.
For all we know this could be another Gorm or Toke rulling over an area that was not yet fully controlled by King Gorm and his son or he was one of his vassals.

This just to show there are so many unknown factors about this time in Danish history. We know some key figures. For one Gesta Danorum was written to promote one royal line of the royal house and that of the crusades of the medieval time.

In that case I find it strange not to mention another son of Gorm. One you only find on runestones.

As to Winland it is suggested that it was a misintrepretation at the part of Adam of Bremen talking about an unknown geografical place..

Ulf
"None of them are right as it wasn't a 73 year old man who died at that battle either.
But Danish Academic Really Want Gorm The OLD to be OLD, despite NO SOURCES CONFIRMS THIS AT ALL! "

I guess we should get rid of all those danish academics and hire you insteed. So we finaly can get somewhere.
I am going to say this ones.

I do not mind one bit to discuss a topic as long as it stays a topic. When members of the discussion resort to namecalling and accussations because they are not happy with the result, I will not take part any longer.
So stick to the topic or there wil be nothing else to discuss.

Justin Durand

The Toke we mentione here is not by far the only one we got. These are just the ones mentioned here.
Toke is the most common name on Runestones. A name used in the upper class for their sons. In the HVide family a later very importend family in Medieval Denmark Toke was also a name used. They where also closely connected to the danish royal house.
Harald as a name was not all that unusual either.
As for Gorm we can fairly sure ca say there was more than one Gorm. Often Confused with each other was Gorm the English and Gorm the old. Two that was both KIng of the danes. However not the same person.
As for Gorm we know by now when the Jelling area was build and when the burial mounds and the sourrinding buildings where build.
The wood from the grave champer has been proven to be taken down by late 958. So the grave most have been made at that time.
Also fits with the later Harald Bluetooth and his activities. Also the palisades that was build it is believed by him in Jelling.

Just to show what comes out of the ground these days in Denmark. Finds that we so far can not place into history.
http://cphpost.dk/news/archeologists-make-sensational-viking-discov...
http://www.archaeology.org/news/5382-170316-denmark-bridle-fittings

Sounds like we're wrapping up now. I suggest we change Jarl Toke from jarl of Vendsyssel to jarl of Winland. That's what our source says. Vendsyssel is a theory.

If anyone is have trouble following all the arguments, this is a nice presentation of some of the issues:

http://medievaldanishfamilies.blogspot.com/2008/10/toke-gormsentoke...

I don't think anyone has any bigger issues after following this thread.

Let me sum it up instead.

1. Odinkar was according to Adam of Bremen the son of Toke jarl in Vendland.

2. Toke jarl in Vendland has been confused with other Toke's and other jarls.

3. The source is clear, Odinkar's father was Toke dux Winlandensis.

4. Winslandensis isn't Vendsyssel.

5. Some curator has still problem with this and won't agree to correct it.

6. This is the reason, Adam of Bremen could have been wrong and there existed other jarls named Toke in other parts of Denmark.

7. Toke was the son of Gorm, as there only was one Toke Gormsen, likely jarl, which the engravings in the runestone supports in the two words "hulan trutin", who died in a battle at Gamla Upsala before ca. 986.

8. Only one Toke jarl in Vendland was named as Odinkar's father.

9. Odinkar the Older was said to have a father who was called Ture, jarl in Vendsyssel

10. No, they are not the same person, Hence the suffix "older one".

11. Palnatoke, named 956 was a jarl in Vendsyssel, according to some historians, and also in Wales.

12. Palnatoke wasn't Ture, nor was he Val-Toke, nor was he Toke jarl in Vendland, but the name is enough apparently to raise doubts, but his patronymic would have been Palnersen, not Gormsen.

13. Some people (at least one, our curator Anette) have confused Val-Toke's domain as jarl in Vendsyssel with Palnatoke, jarl in Vendsyssel and even have made him into a king in Skåne, without any sources at all. There aren't any.

References:
Jump up ^ Boye, Anette. "Toke "Val-toke" Gormsen (Jelling)". www.geni.com.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toke_Gormsson

About Gorm. (Yes, I can also post interesting links to media).
http://cphpost.dk/history/immortalised-on-stone-forever-the-foundin...

Ulf, your argument is getting muddied.

Here you say the father of Bishop Odinkar was jarl of Vendland not Winland.
https://www.geni.com/discussions/169180?msg=1154917

Here you cite runeberg.org as saying he was jarl of Vendsyssel:
https://www.geni.com/discussions/169180?msg=1154970

Here you say he is from Jylland (English: Jutland):
https://www.geni.com/discussions/169180?msg=1155446

Here you cite Adam of Bremen as saying he was dux Winlandensis (jarl of Winland)
https://www.geni.com/discussions/169180?msg=1155467

Here you say again he was dux Winlandensis (jarl of Winland), but also that Geni (not Runeberg) has confused Val-Toke's domain as jarl in Vendsyssel with Palnatoke, jarl in Vendsyssel and that Winland is not Vendsyssel.
https://www.geni.com/discussions/169180?msg=1155571

With respect, I think you are creating some of the problems you're complaining about.

There is only one source for this bit of information. Adam of Bremen says Odinkar's father was dux Winlandensis, which is usually translated jarl of Winland.

Some later writers think Winland was Vendsyssel. Other writers think it was Wendland. Some writers think Adam of Bremen confused Wendland and Vendsyssel. Those are theories, not facts.

Justin, that was taken from that profile, as a quote, not meaning that the info in it self was right, but that Toke
"Odinkar, –1043, Biskop, var Søn af Jarlen Toke i Vendsyssel og beslægtet med Kongeætten."

Should have been more clear about that.

Anything else, the rest seems to be very consistent.

How about asking Anette where she got her sources from, quotes etc?

Try that, would guaranteed be real fun to read.

Yes, if I have questions I will ask. Did you think I would be too shy? ;)

Remember that Anette and I have the same kind of historical training. We've both read the primary sources. We've read many of the same secondary sources. We analyze the information using the same general methodology.

We don't usually have to ask each other questions.

You still haven't explained all the different ideas you have about this mystery territory.

For example, how is it is Wendland not Winland even though Adam of Bremen says Winland. Or how he is from Jutland if no one is sure where Winland is or if iti might be Wendland. Or how it is Anette's fault that runeberg.org says Windland is Vensyssel.

And you still haven't responded to the theory from Nyrup that the two Tokes were cousins. Or the idea that one was in the north and one was in the south.

Val-Toke's profile About needs work as there seem to be several different conflicting tree structures presented

I was hoping to get Ulf to see for himself that Val-Toke's profile is not, could not be, entirely Anette's work, and that the mis-attribution of Toke as jarl of Vensyssel came from his own comments. You've spoiled the surprise ;)

:) Year well I am partial to blame for the mess since I have not been active the last 6 month due to archaeology study, so there is quite a bit of work ahead of me. That part of the blame I will take.

Justin Durand

Just to add to the confusion. Odinkar the elder might have had some connection with the Hvide familie. Here there is a connection to the royal house to.

Justin Durand
Alex Moes

as it is severly unclear and by no meens sure that Val Toke (Name I have a problem with) Should be disconnected from Gorm the old. There are no evidense that he is his son. Offcieal sources sais only 3 children. Danaest, Gudrun and Harald. No others are mentioned in the sources. I have on numerous occations had communication with Aarhus university and Mosgaard. and also the Jelling monument, National museum. They all say the same. 3 children, non else is mentionen. as for Toke Gormsen on the Rune stone there can easily have been a nobleman or minor king in the area with that name.
Di we start a new diskussion on that on Val-Tokes profile???

Actually Ithink the whole mess startes because people want Toke connceted with King Gorm. When Merged in two Gorms his children follows.

What does the "Val-" indicate?

I will help maintain the MPs however the tree is set up, if you guys disconnect Val-Toke from Gorm I will do my best to keep him disconnected and merge away dupes as they appear but whether to cut Toke from Gorm I leave to you

Yes, keep on spitting the tree. You're doing a very good work with that. Saw that you Alex Moes actually set Winland in Odinkar's fathers profile, strange, Vinland in North America wasn't discovered until 1000 by Leif Eriksson, how could Toke be a jarl over that area if he according to the runstones died ca. 985? The problem with many scholars seems to be lack of insight. If Winland didn't referred to Vendland, and actually meant Vinland, then I suggest you to change that Toke jarl's profile to have died after 1000, and why not make him Norwegian as well?

Justin Durand

"I was hoping to get Ulf to see for himself that Val-Toke's profile is not, could not be, entirely Anette's work, and that the mis-attribution of Toke as jarl of Vensyssel came from his own comments. You've spoiled the surprise ;)"

When quoting a text, in this case from Runeberg, you don alter it, but there were two links in the profile, the first Runeberg's where it says "jarl in Vendsyssel, the other one says only Toke, jarl. Carl Frederik Bricka, 1845-1903 who was the author for that text had his specialty in later medieval time, 1500's, but he was also the one who was editor for Dansk Biografisk Leksikon, The Great Danish Encyclopedia, apparently, Vendsyssel has been struck out in that link. Some how, they have managed to see that it had no bearing as A. Bremen's Winslandensis isn't Vendsyssel and couldn't be. The oldest known name for Vendsyssel is Vendsussel, from 1060, the area in it self existed of course before that, but how they actually called it before that, we don't know.

This has been a bit frustrating debate to follow. Although very informative and I have learned new things also. The style of conversation has sometimes been disrespectful and somewhat childish, given that all are adult people. That is not necessary or justified in any case. Be kind whenever you can - you always can.

As a regular user of Geni, my opinion is that "cuts" in Odinkars case, that has taken place, should not be done without a general discussion. This is Geni, it is rare there are 100% waterproof bottoms and the attitude of "let me hit you with my academic career" is not helpful.

Various sources and the internet contain so much information and theories about Odinkar den store, Odinkar den Ældre / Jarl Toke / Toke Gormsen / Adam Af Bremen/ History of the Jelling Kings/ Gorm, that when you make cuts like this one, there should be at least more info added (to now whatsoever quite empty profiles).

I understand some necessary cuts, but Geni is far from being systematic, consistent, 100% coherent, 100% proven history study program, when making disconnections and cuts. Many Geni users are often left confused, when "pinned persons" or ancestors disappear due to one cut and without explanation or without a trace, what was the connection at first place.

@Ulf thanks for the followers of these profiles letting know, what is going on.

Have a good Midsummer you all - best wishes, Saga Rewell

Ulf,

Winlandensis is the Latin form of the name, in the genitive case. You can think of it this way -- the -ensis ending means "of". The nominative form is Winland, even though we don't know where that was. It does not mean Vinland in America.

To give another example, I live in Denver Colorado. The Roman Catholic archdiocese here is Archidioecesis Denveriensis in Latin. The genitive form of London is Londonensis. You can find many similar examples.

Saga, I think the main problem is that the link was added without discussion. But that is now an old, unproductive debate. It's not relevant to what we do now, so I apologize for harping on it.

There are many theories in this area because the sources don't give a firm answer.

If someone is working in the middle ages and saga times, I think we should expect them to know enough to know when something is controversial. It's an unbelievable amount of work to clean up the medieval tree over and over and over because the people adding profiles don't always know what they're doing.

Anette, I think we should disconnect Val-Toke from father Gorm. Theories are fun but I don't think the Geni tree should go past the majority opinion of experts.

If you start a discussion I will participate.

> What does the "Val-" indicate?

https://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/VAL
https://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/VALD

Norse names are often enigmatic. We don't always know for sure. I've read several different theories but I don't know which -- if any -- of them might be right. The one that makes the most sense to me is that it means "Mighty Toke", perhaps given posthumously. Anette might have better information.

It's coincidental you would ask. Last night I was trying to find an article about Gorm that I remember reading. The article argued that Gorm's name was really Guthorm (Guðorm), and that the form Gorm is just an abbreviation used on rune stones. Maybe but my reaction was that someone just needed to dash off a quick article ;)

https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttorm

Yes, cut all away, then I can start over.

Family1
Gorm
His son
Toke Gormsen Jarl, died at age ca. 45-50 at the battle of Fyrisvall 985
his three sons
Asbjörn, died 985 with his father
Odinkar, became bishop.
Skjalm Tokesen, hin Hwitae, father of Toke Trylle, died ca. 975 † Vendsyssel, =gave rise for later Hvide families, likely his mother was a Hvide.
Palne Tokesen, his son, Toke Palnesen, Ealdorman in Devonshire, d. 1002

Family 2 different from family 1.
Toke=Val-Toke, (Val=the fallen one) from Fyn, born before 900
his son
Palne, born before 940 d.ca.955, married to a daughter of Ottar Jarl, Ingeborg Ottorsdotter.
his son
Palnatoke, nickname slau, Slag (slau=sly=cunning) (Slag= impactful), was briefly a jarl in Vendsyssel 956 , i.e. place=north Jylland, married
Ålof Stemnesdotter, daughter of Stemne, jarl.
his son
Åke Tokesson, married Torgunna
his son
Vagn Tokesson

NB! This one Could belong to either family 1 or 2, but I set him up in family 1.
In family 2, he would be identical as Palne, 940-955, but I think it's a bit unlikely that they were the same one, anyway, he's the only uncertain one.
Palne Tokesen,
his son,
Toke Palnesen, Ealdorman in Devonshire, d. 1002

Ulf, those connections -- both individually and collectively -- are very controversial. Proceed cautiously so you don't end up suspended for vandalism.