William de Balliol, Clerk to the Chancery - RE Henry is not Williams Father

Allan

Do you have a birthdate for this William? I have not seen one. I will remove the birth date.

There are, as far as I know, only a couple of original records pertaining to him:

"1 That they were brothers is shown by a record (Chapter House, Scotch documents, Box 100, No. 187), printed in Stevenson's Documents &.c. i, 285. Robert Hayrun (Heron), rector of the church of Forde, and adjunct to the chamberlain of Scotland, acknowledges that he has received on Friday, 21 March, 1291-2, “ do domino Alex° do Ball[iolo] Gamerario scocie per menus domini Will'i do Bull[iolo] fratris sui, clerici, in parts solucionis vadiorum meorum,” 13l (38 8d. VOL. VI. B"

So we know from this record that

- William was living in 1292
- he was a clerk of the church in holy orders
- he was the brother of Alexander, Chamberlain of Scotland

Feel free to work with other curators on this, I am not in fact this profile's curator.

First of all some one has messed with his dates very recently because it was and should be 1251 . and there is to my Knowledge only 2 Williams This one who is also the ancestor of My Scott Line that i previously disconnected in dispute of Henry a while back and Alexander's son William Baliol, born 1277 also known as William Baillie l father to William Baillie ll of Hoprig as the Baillie books point out
This William de Baliol is the same as William de Baliol le Scot, William Baliol le Scot who later Dropped Baliol from his name to avoid being killed by Edward l Longshanks of England Later Becoming William le Scot and No need to use Clerk to the Chancery B.S. to confuse things further even if it was part of his Career at one point . I never disputed Alexander Baliol being William's Brother i Disputed Henry being his Father and it seem you and Justin kept twisting things around with these profiles, such as a while back Justin started a discussion for "John le Scot no Baliol Descent " and that was and is a load of crap as William and Alexander both are of Cavers and Alexander's Wife of Chilham Kent and Later William (My William) becomes ancestor of the Scott's of Kent also
http://www.chilham-castle.co.uk/the-history-of-chilham-castle/pre-1...
William and Alexander where of Cavers, Cavers Castle is in Ayrshire Scotland built by the Baliol Family in the 1200's
that's why William is Listed as a Family member in the Source Principle Family's of Ayrshire
Baliol Family starts page 43 William de Baliol Mentioned on page 54
https://ia801409.us.archive.org/3/items/agenealogicalac00robegoog/a...

see here about Cavers Castle that is Located in Ayrshire Scotland that mentions when the Baliol Family Built it

http://www.scotclans.com/scotland/visit-scotland/scottish-castles/s...
William's Parent are John Baliol and Devorguilla , and there may have been 3 Alexanders also i believe as sources have pointed out one being the son of this one who was of Cavers
Sir Alexander de Baliol, of Barnard Castle

and one died 1278 s.p. and Henry the Son of King John making Henry Brother to Alexander and William and source below shows Henry Killed at battle of annan s.p.
see top of these pages
https://archive.org/stream/memorialsoffamil00scot#page/22/mode/2up

no mention of a Henry who died 1245 in source above so none of these 2 Henry's are the Father of William

Sir Henry de Baliol, of Cavers, Chamberlain of Scotland

This also is an issue as you have Alexander born at Barnard Castle that is wrong it also says "It is probable, but not certain, that he was the same person as Alexander de Baliol, the son of Henry de Baliol, chamberlain of Scotland, who died in 1246" but it does not mention William being the son of Henry there
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=tibar...

Sir Alexander de Baliol of Cavers, 1st Lord Balliol

Meaning of S.P. example here
https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/99352/can-anyone-tell-me-please-what-d...

"s. p. = sine prole, without offspring."

This is where the confusion is, and you will see the mixup in quite a few sources.

A mother usually knows her children, and Devorgilla's son Alexander was of Barnard Castle, who had no children. His brother was John, KIng of Scotland, by right of his mother's ancestry.

Lora also had a son Alexander among others. He is known best by his office, chamberlain of Scotland, his property of chilham in Kent by right of his wife. The only record we have for William le Baliol "cleric" is as the brother of Alexander the chamberlain.

You can, I suppose, suggest that Alexander's brother is not the son of Henry. But you can't say that the Chamberlain, son of Lora, is the same person as Alexander, son of Devorgilla.

I updated the birth location to Scotland. The previous location must have been left over from the mixup of Alexanders.

I do not know where exactly he was born so left any further details TBD.

HENRY DIED AT BATTLE S.P.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=H78IAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA492&lpg=...

See note about Henry on the Left see William le Scot on Right see little hand pointing up on top of left page then click left arrow at the bottom for previous page then go to bottom of page see arrow pointing down below William's Parents.
https://archive.org/stream/memorialsoffamil00scot#page/22/mode/2up/...

furthermore just because only a few of them are only mentioned "of Cavers"the whole Baliol Family could have moved to Cavers
http://www.scotclans.com/scotland/visit-scotland/scottish-castles/s...

then start reading from page 45 in the Principle Families of Ayrshire here (location of Cavers Castle )
https://ia601409.us.archive.org/3/items/agenealogicalac00robegoog/a...

https://books.google.ca/books?id=twwHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA432&lpg=...

Allan,

Before I look at these, you do realize that there were TWO Alexander de Baliol's in this period? I think it important we all understand that, because many in the past mixed them up.

From this book I do not see that Henry died s.p. I see a Henry, supposed to brother of Hugh, died 1245.

Alexander, brother of King John, died without issue about the year 1306

https://books.google.ca/books?id=H78IAQAAMAAJ&lpg=PA492&dq=...

A Companion and Key to the History of England: Consisting of Copious ...
By George Fisher (of Swaffham, Norkolk.) page 492

On page 22 of Scott's of Scott Hall, they show a Henry, brother of King Edward, killed at battle of Amnan, s.p.

That is a different Henry from the father of Alexander of Cavers.

https://archive.org/stream/memorialsoffamil00scot#page/22/mode/1up

I am aware that there is more than one Alexander, I have put together a picture Collage of sources with there Citations in the Picture, I uploaded it under the Media Tab
https://media.geni.com/p13/16/fb/30/cb/53444843d35593b8/baliol_fami...

As Cavers Castle was in or near Ayrshire see my comments (last2) dated 4/26/2017 at 9:51 PM Cavers Castle a "64 Room Castle in its Hayday" (see pic i provided) "page 34 in the Book of Wallace," among those summoned these five Barons who also held land in Scotland" Notice John de Baliol the 2nd person mentioned to Hold Land in Scotland Alexander the 4th person mentioned. Now Just because Alexander, Henry are known to be of Cavers from sources it does not mean that other family members did not live there in the 64 room Castle, and William de Baliol, William Baliol le Scot known to be a Brother of Alexander Henry can not be the Father of these men because Henry died 1245/6 and William was born 1251 long after Henry's death Henry was probaby an Uncle therefore William and Alexander can only be John's Brother as most of the sources point out. and son of John and Devorguilla.
Using the term of Cavers to sort out the relationships of these Family members is redundant.

Devorguilla had no son William, feel free to argue with Oxford University on it.:)

It is helpful for geni membership to make display names to distinguish between similarly named profiles.

see The bottom of page 432 and all of page 433
https://books.google.ca/books?id=d7ymxs8hx6AC&pg=PA433&dq=S...
i have noticed here on Geni how the 2 William's may be getting Confused with one an other also we have William Baliol le Scot born 1251 Brother of Alexander Baliol (the one known to be of Cavers and Chilham Kent) then there is the William Baliol or (Baillie) of Hoprig as mentioned in the source above and in your Stirnetnet source that is Derived from the Source Lives of Baillies.
Due to the source above it looks like there is Confusion with the Number of William Baillies between Alexander and the one that Married Elizabeth Wallace and it may be possible that William Baliol le Scot born 1251 had had an affair with Isabel of Chilham making William born 1277 brother to John le Scot born 1290 as John le Scot's father is known to be William Baliol le Scot born 1251 his wife not known but he buried near isabela and John le Scot born in Brabourne Kent also.
This Theory from the source above fits my YDNA Matches and Results and makes sense, in time i will confirm this one way or an other but Henry died 1245/6 does not fit as the Father of William or Alexander as he died long before William Baliol le Scot born 1251 was even conceived DNA does not care about Peoples Feellings even if they went to University . I had done Tests Y111 originally predicting me to be R-M269 then i did 137 SNP Backbone test Confirming me to be R-M222 now that i have done The BIG Y it has refined me to be a some what rare subclade of R-S673 so in the near future people will have to accept what my Big Y results reveal as My Testing Big Y started a Big Y Testing Frenzie amongst R-M222 people and its my common ancestors with Big Y Tester Matches that will sort things out working down from them.

Sure, generations of "William le Scot" may have been conflated or mixed up. Looking into the Hosprig line is a good strategy. Try and find the primary sources; they are scant but some do exist.

This Alexander may be a twin who died early or the Wrong one is Placed here Henry is not William's Father John and Devorguilla is William Balliol le Scot's Father
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Pub/ArchCant/010%20-%201...
See this Pedigree that suggests Alexander possibly had a Twin who died 1278 page 23 for Parents see bottom of Page 20 also seeing how William was Clerk for Alexander see page 34 in the Book of Wallace mentions John and Alexander as Barons summond by the King of England matches note on Pedigree on page 23 in Scott's Hall Book and page 34 in the Book of Wallace mentions that John and Alexander Held Lands in Sccotland at the Time and that would be the 64 room Cavers Castle, 64 rooms being big enough for eight Family members even if they each had eight children
"Cavers Castle, near Hawick, is now an empty shell of a ruin despite being a 64-room, 100,000 acre residence in its heyday"
http://www.douglashistory.co.uk/history/Places/cavers.htm#.WVFkqevyvIV

When i did a 137 SNP Backbone YDNA Test it confirmed my Haplogroup to be R-M222 and SNP'S found in my YDNA Support the above see my Results at FTDNA,s England GB Norman Group https://www.familytreedna.com/social/object/1651253 My SNP'S support the Geography for that time. then I Did The BIG Y Test at FTDNA that refined me fuurther to be a subclade of R-M222 i am now R-S673 That Covers England , see this discussion regarding R-M222 and R-S673 http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/LANARK/2013-10/1381382577also notice Northumberland for Location tied to my STR Results in the England GB Norman Group search for Kit#510220 Northumberland is where Barnard Castle is
Also My BIG Y Results have found some French SNP'S from France and i am now on the BIG Y Tree see these Links
first link notice Haplogroup for Balliol DF49 one SNP i Have
http://www.ytree.net/PeopleIndex.php?kit=510220

see these 2 links for DF49
https://yhrd.org/tools/branch/R1b-DF49
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF49/

Re Alexanders i forgot to add this above see page 23
https://archive.org/stream/memorialsoffamil00scot#page/22/mode/2up

Sorry, no sale. Most of the rest of us have by now been thoroughly informed of the (non-)value of "Scot's Hall" as a reference source. It's like trying to establish the validity of a pedigree based on the work of Gustave Anjou. (Do look him up, he was a real piece of work.)

you are one person i do not care to hear an opinion from research your own Family

The Discussion area is public. Anyone can read anything posted, and anyone can comment. If you can't find better documentation than old discredited sources, you *will* attract comments that you don't like.

Rudeness won't change that, and will only alienate people.

so why are you rude

I'm not going to play "pot and kettle" with you. You have your idee fixe, you've been told it is incorrect, and how and why, in exhaustive detail, and you just repeat and repeat and repeat like a broken record.

You can talk talk talk all you like, but I don't think you'll change any minds here. (See extended discussions on such subjects as Odinkar den store, Rollo-Hrolf the Ganger, Ragnar Loddbrok, and so forth. Lots of talk talk talk that changed nothing.)

Someone mentioned the Oxford University site

http://archives.balliol.ox.ac.uk/History/founders.asp

so I took another look at the references there, and noticed an interesting article I hadn't looked at. Worth a skim at the very least.

Marjorie Drexler. 'Dervorguilla of Galloway.' Transactions of the Dumfriesshire and Galloway Natural History and Antiquarian Society Vol.LXXIX (3rd series) 2005, pp.101-146.

http://www.dgnhas.org.uk/transonline/SerIII-Vol79.pdf page 101