Pope Gregory X - Pope Gregory X (Theobaldo Visconti) parents ?

I would like to tag for their input
George J. Homs
Conte Raimondo Visconti di Modrone
Lúcia Pilla
Private User
Private User

If you agree on the above, we need, at the very least, to disconnect the "children" of the "pope" and attach them to their more likely father, Theobaldo (or Teobaldo) born c1227 here: Teobaldo Visconti
Other points to solve: there seem to be several "Uberto Visconti", one c1770, the other c1190... one or the other is likely to be the father of the Pope, the same or a different one the father of Obizzo, grandfather of Theobaldo 1227.

Going forward, I propose using spellings that may have been used in the earliest documents, rather than other-language variants, wherever possible (Teobaldo; Giovanni, etc)

I have removed cap. Matteo I Visconti, signore di Milano
and
Uberto Visconti, "il Pico" 1°signore di Somma

as children of Pope Gregory X

and added them as children of Teobaldo Visconti

Witam ponownie !
Po uaktualnieniu profilu wydaje mi się, że pożądane przez Ciebie zmiany się dokonały. Problem jest tylko taki, że nie jestem autorem tych profili, tylko ich użytkownikiem. Daj znać, czy ta zmiana kończy problem. Sam nie potrafię tego ocenić.
Pozdrawiam

Marek Stanisław Porębski

"Welcome back ! After updating the profile, it seems to me that the changes you have made have changed. The problem is only that I'm not the author of these profiles, only their users. Let me know if this change ends the problem. I can not judge myself. Regards

I have now moved the Pope's "wife" by merging her with the wife of Teobaldo 1227, then removing the Pope's link to her. Will now proceed to finish the re-connection of the upper part of the tree with merges with a few duplicates I created to bypass the Pope.

Just some more messages between Marie and I
Angus Wood-Salomon
3/29/2017 at 8:22 AM
Would you look at the tree here (note I put the dates of birth in the suffix I will remove them after)

https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000008498435889

https://www.geni.com/people/Guidone-Visconti-b-1091/600000000849843... paents are showing as https://www.geni.com/people/Eriprando-Visconti-b-c-990/600000001057... and
https://www.geni.com/people/Beatrice-di-Milano-b-1010/6000000010571...

This means his parents were nearly 100 yrs old when they had him

Any ideas

Marie Woodall Patureau
3/29/2017 at 11:37 AM
Yes, I was tempted to do the same, (add birth dates in suffixes as you did) to avoid homonym confusion. I think homonym confusion is how we get strange things in the trees, sometimes, as when someone merges their relative to the wrong person. This can be one source of "100 year old" parents. Alternately, it could mean the person believes the ancestor is related, although they are not sure of the intermediate parents and grandparents. Mistakes are also possible.
What I do in those cases, as my time permits, is to research someone in the nearby tree with a pretty firm birth date or spouse, to Anchor them in some way. Then check up the other tree what has been noted.

Marie Woodall Patureau
3/29/2017 at 11:41 AM
One other "trick" I use, when I find a person who has married a cousin, say, (and I expect same grandparents to come up), I write their name temporarily as "Jane to merge"...then remove it when merged (when I don't have any birth date).

Marie Woodall Patureau
3/29/2017 at 11:50 AM
**On these here: Would you look at the tree here (note I put the dates of birth in the suffix I will remove them after)
https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000008498435889
https://www.geni.com/people/Guidone-Visconti-b-1091/600000000849843... paents are showing as https://www.geni.com/people/Eriprando-Visconti-b-c-990/600000001057... and
https://www.geni.com/people/Beatrice-di-Milano-b-1010/6000000010571...
This means his parents were nearly 100 yrs old when they had him**

There were SEVERAL Epirando Visconti, so they've gotten the wrong one here.
I need more time to cross-search for more precise data, but here is an idea:http://gw.geneanet.org/wcphilbrick?lang=en&pz=william+charl......

Marie Woodall Patureau
3/29/2017 at 1:31 PM
I have added in 3 references to Guidone Visconti's profile lhttps://www.geni.com/people/Guidone-Visconti-b-1091/600000000849843... , showing a convergence to his parents being https://www.geni.com/people/Guidone-Visconti-b-1091/600000000849843...
1. Otto I Visconti and Lucretia Stampa
Otto's parents
2 Eriprand (Eriprando) Visconti and Beatrice de Milan
Further than that, there are still some discrepancies...

Marie Woodall Patureau
3/30/2017 at 1:20 PM
Still researching things, since I've noticed Guidone's bith date here of around 1090, and some have it as 1114, not quite right...(found sites matching Guido b1114 to Garizia d'Italia, c1090) so I can't base his parents on those sites...

Marie Woodall Patureau
3/30/2017 at 2:06 PM
Here's where the best data seems to converge, for our Guidone Visconti b1090:

http://gw.geneanet.org/jmpuygrenier69?n=de+visconti&oc=&amp......
With complementary data here on a grandmother : http://gw.geneanet.org/julieanyaguthrie?n=visconti&oc=&......
and here http://gw.geneanet.org/olflo?n=visconti&oc=&p=guidone
and also http://gw.geneanet.org/leonac?n=visconti&oc=&p=guy+....
I'd confirm at the very least today: father Eriprando, grand-father Ottone I, Great Grandfather, another Eriprando...

Angus Wood-Salomon
yesterday at 12:12 AM
Let us look at the tree focused on Guidone Visconti, b.1091 https://www.geni.com/people/Guidone-Visconti-b-1091/600000000849843...
https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000008498435889

i used your link
http://gw.geneanet.org/jmpuygrenier69?n=de+visconti&oc=&amp......

Please check by working up and down the tree

Marie Woodall Patureau
yesterday at 6:59 PM
I've checked the male line, up, and added Bonifacio on top, along with his spouse. All refs are in the "source" tabs. All ok I think in the male line, to the best of our references, going up from Guidone.
Going up, also, I've added in (or verified) spouses, with only a reserve on the 2 ladies both named Lucretia Stampa, with the same father in name, and differing dates. One is married to an uncle... may be homonym errors, or there may have been 4 distinct people. No further info found to date to confirm or infirm.
Going down from Guidone, I've added in the spouse of an Ottone Visconti, https://www.geni.com/people/Aldegunda-Visconti-b-1123/6000000016766...
I then merged her with a seeming homonyn, and adjusted dates slightly, and ref. in the source tabs. HOWEVER, her "2 husbands" seem to be the same (from the merger) same child, yet different mothers! I believe "our" mother to be the more likely one, Garizia

https://www.geni.com/people/Viscount-Ottone-Visconti/60000000084985...

and not Otton II Visconti...

rie Woodall Patureau
Today at 7:13 AM
It is extremely difficult to sort the LUITGARDEs (Lucrèce or Lucrezia), but I belive they are one and the same, as shown in the link here, where a certain "Othon I di Visconti di Milano" names vary by source, from Ottone di Visconti di Milano, Othone, Otton, etc
http://gw.geneanet.org/aurejac?lang=en&pz=elouan&nz......

Further along this tree, we see that the spouse some have named "Garizia" is in this tree is named to be Alasie de Genève. this may or may not be the same as our Guidone, supposedly married to Garizia...(whom some say Garizia d'Italia, but Garizia d'Italia is also thought to have been the spouse of a completely different person...
See "Guy" Visconti 1120 married to Alasie de Genève : http://gw.geneanet.org/aurejac?lang=en&pz=elouan&nz......

If folks agree (I've invited my 3rd cousin, Judy Shappeeto join us in this conversation, for input. She is also related to the Visconti's through her father's 5th great-grandfather's second wife... ;) (For the record, my husband is a direct descendant of the Visconti"s, hence how I got here...)

Basically, in summary, I suggest we pretty much go by this latest link from Stefano up, with the possible exception of Guy / Guidone, with disparate approx birth dates...

Angus Wood-Salomon
Today at 9:21 AM
You said
"Going down from Guidone, I've added in the spouse of an Ottone Visconti,
https://www.geni.com/people/Aldegunda-Visconti-b-1123/6000000016766...

I then merged her with a seeming homonyn, and adjusted dates slightly, and ref. in the source tabs. HOWEVER, her "2 husbands" seem to be the same (from the merger) same child, yet different mothers! I believe "our" mother to be the more likely one, Garizia

https://www.geni.com/people/Viscount-Ottone-Visconti/60000000084985...

and not Otton II Visconti...;

I have merged the two Ottones
https://www.geni.com/people/Viscount-Ottone-Visconti/60000000084985...

So the tree is this now https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000008498533792

Angus Wood-Salomon
Today at 9:41 AM
Now if you look at this part of the tree
https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000008498533792

and focus on Ottone's son Giovani Visconti Giovanni Visconti
https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000026118653728

You will now see we have an Uberto (note spelling) https://www.geni.com/people/Uberto-Visconti-signore-di-Massino-b-11... son of Ruggerio Visconti https://www.geni.com/people/Ruggero-Visconti-signore-di-Massino-b-c... and Ruggerio is son of Ottone and Aldegunda

and an Umberto (note spelling) Umberto Visconti son of Giovanni Visconti and Giovani's parents are also Otoone and Aldegunda

Again remember I am pointing these out only for your expert eyes..I do not have any information about them

Angus Wood-Salomon
Today at 9:46 AM
I am glad you asked Judy Shappee to join the discussion

Angus Wood-Salomon
4/1/2017 at 9:53 AM
Hi Judy here are some messages that Marie and I had. I am a Curator on Geni so I will be trying to assist you and Marie with your findings.

If and when you decide to reply here just remember to Click on 'Reply All' that way your response will come to both Marie and I

Marie Woodall Patureau
4/2/2017 at 6:47 AM
Hi, Judy, and Angus,
Judy, it's normal to find "duplicates", especially as we work out ongoing merges... I do NOT MERGE supposed duplicates when there is too much contradictory info, such as one person likely having a duplicate in another tree, but where parent names differ, until such time as I can research the immediate family members for some coherence.
We also need to bear in mind that we can easily have SEVERAL different people with the same or similar names, just as easily as we can have variances in the names of individuals who are likely the same person. Name variances for same-individuals can arise from several sources:
1. Historical misspellings between, say, a birth certificate, and a marriage, subsequent children, death records, inhertance records, and property cessions...
2. European nobles often married nobles in other countries. Their names are often noted, then, in the local language...
3. Copying errors, whether historical, or present- day

I don't know of any formal "naming conventions" but I suggest names closest to historical documents in the country of origin, with alternate spellings in parentheses when used either historically, or to facilitate links to others. Further, if an English-speaking person wishes to link thier tree to Joan of Arc, I'd NOT merge my Jeanne D'Arc to hers, and muss up her tree. If she wishes to merge her Joan to the MP Jeanne, I'd request she adopt the MP name...

For the Visconti family, I'll be entering those today and in the next few days, as my time permits.

Marie Woodall Patureau
4/2/2017 at 7:00 AM
Judy's reply, which should have been included before mine, below...

Judy Sappee: I agree: there seem to be a bunch of duplicates, plus some names that didn't make sense to me. I'm out of town right now but will look into this more later.

Judy, which names didn't "make sense? "Viscount Othon Visconti" ? Fore sure! The Visconti family got thier family name from their title. They were viscounts... The geni app allows fields for titles, but this is a bit redundant.

Angus, after a bit more study, I think the Viscount visconti and Othon II might be the same, and should be merged. But I plan to cross-check more before doing so...

Can be seen as the dual husbands in the wife's profile, but I see, Angus, that you have already been working there...

Angus Wood-Salomon
4/2/2017 at 7:24 AM
Good morning all.
Yes I decided to merge the two Ottones

By the way if you wish to see what happened on a profile just scroll down and check the 'Revisions' tab

It started on Mar 27th when we first started our discussions
Viscount Ottone Visconti Of Milan was merged into Viscount Ottone Visconti by Angus Wood-Salomon.
Mar 27 at 8:37 AM · view · undo
Here is what the two profiles looked like at that time
https://www.geni.com/merge/view?revision_id=70289825650

Then on Thursday (Mar 30th)
Ottone II Visconti was merged into Viscount Ottone Of Visconti by Angus Wood-Salomon.
Thu at 11:14 PM · view · undo
Here is what those profiles looked like
https://www.geni.com/merge/view?revision_id=70299709190

Then lastly
Ottone II Visconti was merged into Viscount Ottone Of Visconti by Angus Wood-Salomon.
Yesterday at 9:05 AM · view · undo
This how the profiles looked before that merge
https://www.geni.com/merge/view?revision_id=70303247000

We also worked on https://www.geni.com/people/Aldegunda-Visconti-b-1123/6000000016766...
You can check the Revisions for her

Marie Woodall Patureau
4/2/2017 at 7:42 AM
One naming concern is what looks like a redundancy in the naming of Viscount Ottone of Visconti, and our lack of consistency in naming...
He was indeed a "viscount", but not the first, apparently the second by the name of Othone. The other viscounts often show as Othone I, Othone III, etc.
Note: some nobles in Europe like to add "of" or "de" or "di" in our case of Italy, the particule, as it is known, being a sign of aristocracy... However, I've noted the simplification of just "Visconti" being currently used here on GENI....
I'd suggest simply the use of "Visconti", and I, II or III etc attached to first names, with titles and alternate spellings and things put in the "about" section.
The Visconti family were viscounts of Milan, hence the local "Visconti di Milano"....or sometimes "di Visconti di Milano"...
Also, in France after the revolution, many noble families dropped the "de" in front of their names, or attached it ("de Something" becoming "Desomething")in order to downplay their aristocractic roots (and avoir being beheaded ;) ).

ie Woodall Patureau
Today at 7:01 AM
Hi, Angus, I have been doing some cross-checking, and nearby merges, and I think what we have up to Bonifacio is pretty good as is. I have no other issues to note to date in that area. I've spent some time trying to also cross-check some of the "Pope's" former descendants, to make sure we didn't cut any branches off the tree. It seems to be attached as they were, although there seem to be duplicates there, etc. But not being in a direct line with those nobles, perhaps direct line descendents there would be more likely to look into those (or when we get the time).
My next questions would be if and how we should re-attach the cleansed area of the tree to the more upper portions, some of which go back to the Count of Geneva in 860 or so... I'm only slightly reticent to do so in any hurry, until we've checked those for consistency, too...
Or, in your expert opinion, should we soon proceed to re-attach our portion to the upper tree, all the while continuing our consistency checks close to Bonifacio?
thanks for your advice on this and for all your expert help in straightening out the Pope Gregory issue!
In the meanwhile, I'll be on to Bonifacio's ascendants next...

Just a reminder that I am copying some of the messages between us in the discussion so there would be a permanent record attached to the profiles mentioned

In continuing to re-attach portions of this amended tree, I suggest we merge the profiles of Alasie (Alix) Visconti de Genève with Alix de Genève:
Alasie de Genève and
Alasie de Genève
(This is a result of the estimation that her husband Guidone (Guy) Visconti is the same as the one in this new amended tree; previously, some sources put Garizia NN as the spouse of Guidone in this area.)

Next steps up the Visconti tree: Bonifacio Visconti's parents are widely noted to be Obizzo I of Milan and Mathilde von Schwaben (or de Souabe).
In our GENI tree, one Mathilde Von Schwaben, born before 1000 is incorrectly married to a youner Obizzo, as seen here: Mathilde di Milano (this Oizzo being born c 1200!!!)
Can you please merge her to the Mathilde von Schwaben I just created, husband of the father of Bonifacio, here Obizzo I di Milano and detach her from the incorrect Obizzo, married to Fiorina Mandeli.
It is well assumed that Mathilde von Schwaben had several husbands, after being widowed at least twice. Some inconsistencies persist in birth dans marriage dates...