Gesina "Geesje" Steenkamp - Too many children?

We need to explore the possibility of Gesina not being born in +/- 1718. Once this can be established then the dates of birth/bapt of her children can be looked at - and verification sought. Private User your assistance is vital!

https://www.yumpu.com/nl/document/view/55632201/labuschagne-geslags... have her as the daughter of Jan Harmensz Steenkamp and Jannetje van Eck - married 17 Nov 1739 at the Cape (the marriage doc is attached to her profile). That source has her born on 4 July 1723 - Drakenstein, bapt 4 July 1723. 5 Children Jan Harm, Casper, Frans, Frans and Johanna.

You can see the profiles connected following the link to Elizabeth Besselame Sharon. I cannot do much more this morning as previously explained and hope that drastic changes won't be made until they have been discussed here first. Please.

Mostly the baptisms are not indexed on family search and so a lot of browsing is required.

Later.

There is a source doc for the 1718 baptism attached to the profile. The one that is supposed to be the 1723 one, doesn't seem to be it - but I may not be seeing correctly, and that doesn't mean there isn't one.

The idea isn't to make irrevocable changes - hence my taking all the time to link all the profiles involved to this discussion first. We need to take into account the eggsa data and other primary source data that people can find- that's what the Discussion is for. I'm not committed to the ffyp being correct, it certainly appears to be missing profiles here, but it is notoriously better sourced that the SAG.

The idea is to find the primary sources together to allow us to collaboratively construct a completely sourced line that we've independently proved.

Agreed Sharon - but bear in mind the scope of the FFYP - Martha just arrived

Let's find the primary sources and confirm the SAG for ourselves then. Enjoy your granddaughter.

De stamvader van dese familie was Jan Steenkamp, van Nieuwkerk, gehuwd 14 October 1714 met Gesina Visser, hertrouwd 19 Mei 1720 met Jannetjie van Eck.
(b) 1. Margaretha, gedoopt 1 September 1715, gehuwd met Floris Smit.
2. Johanna, gedoopt 4 October 1716, gehuwd met Gerrit Nieuwoudt
3. Jan, gedoopt 18 September 1718
4. Gijsbert, gedoopt 18 September 1718
5. Jan, gedoopt 19 October 1721
6 Gesina, gedoopt 4 Juli 1723, Gehuwd met Jan Labuschagne, hertrouwd met Jan Nel.

Daarna nog 8 kinders - 14 in totaal.

(b) 8. Jan Nel, gehuwd met Susanna Fourie
(C) 1. Willem
2. Jan, gedoopt 13 November 1718, burger te Swellendam, gehuwd 29 Desember 1754 met Gesina Steenkamp , weduwee van Jan Labuschagne

Hulle (Jan Nel en Gesina) het saam 6 kinders gehad

Jan Labuschagne
De stamvader van deze familie was Jan Labuschagne, van Enkhuizen, buger te Drakenstein, gehuwd 11 November 1731 met Elisabeth Besselman, van Amsterdam, hertrouwd 11 October 1739 met Gesina Steenkamp.

Volgens die datums was 5 van hulle (Jan labuschagne en Gesina) 8 kinders Gesina s'n.

Thanks Magdalena - the more heads we put together on this one, the better chance we have of creating a sourced line :-)

Can anyone find & upload primary Source Documentation for Anna Catharina Labuschagne & Pieter Labuschagne births before circa September 19, 1734
Paarl, Cape, South Africa with parents:Jean "Jan" Labuschagne & Elizabeth Besselame

This is the 1723 baptism that Jan is seeing:
http://www.eggsa.org/sarecords/index.php/church-registers/cape-town...
"Geesje
Jan Steenkamp, en Johanna van Ek (Jan Steenkamp, SV/PROG &
de ouders."Johanna "Jannetje" van Eck, SM)
1723

http://www.eggsa.org/sarecords/index.php/church-registers/cape-town...

Okay then the 1726 Casper Hendrik Nel (Casper Jan Hendrik Steenkamp) is actually supposed to be tthe 1726 Casper Jan Hendrik Steenkamp Casper Jan Hendrik Steenkamp
C.C. de Villiers & C. Pama, Geslagregisters van ou Kaapse Families III S-K, p 922

He's the child of Gesina Steenkamp's stepmother, Johanna van Eck - so her stepbrother, nor her son :-)
Merging that away...

Thankyou for the Anna Catherina & Pieter Labuschagne baptism records, June. Crossing those off too.

Ilse Suzette Anne Van Wieringen, (c1b1a), the Casper merge sorts out your problem on the profile:
"How can Casper Jan Hendrik Nel b. 1726 be the son of ---
Jan Nel b. 1718 and Gesina Steenkamp b. 1723 and who were married on 29 Dec 1754 ? He could be the son of Jean Nel (b2a1) b. 1687 and Susanna Fourie (b1a) b.1699
between children c5 and c6 . BUT I have no proof of that :))
Regards Ilse"

So, I've deleted your note from the overview :-)

This link takes you to what is available to browse through on family search
https://familysearch.org/search/image/index?owc=M64H-2NG%3A13850901...

Sorry - sporadic attention dominated by Martha activity

And here is the source of the problem. Not only is Casper, Gysie Steenkamp bap 1718's half brother, but he had a sister, Gesina "Geesje" Steenkamp bap 1723 who was half sister to the 1718 Gesina. Steenkamp Labuschagne Nel.

There are baptism docs for both (uploaded by Private) that had got merged onto one profile, clearly showing the different parents:
Gysie Steenkamp bap 18 Sep 1718
Parents:Jan Steenkamp & Gesina Visser

Gesina "Geesje" Steenkamp bap July 4 1723
Parents: Jan Steenkamp & Jannetje van Eck.

Private User, I think that your: "4. Gijsbert, gedoopt 18 September 1718" is a misreading of Gesina "Gijsie" Steenkamp.

Actually, Jansi tells us exactly that here: https://www.geni.com/discussions/116666?msg=841443.

Jan en Gijsbert albei gedoop 18 September 1718. Soos in die Oude Kaapsche
families opgeteken.
Dis die enigste inskrywing vir hulle.
Ek lei af hulle was 'n tweeling gewees en dalk vroeg oorlede

Look at the document uploaded on Gysie Steenkamp. You can see that the 'Gijsbert' is actually the same spelling of the name as the mother's name.

Now the question is - do both of these Gesina Steenkamps live? Should the children we're having so much problem with actually be split between them? Or does one of them die young? (And is there proof of this?)

Why does the second wife name a child after the first wife? Is that a good indication that the first wife and her namesake daughter had both died?

If there was a birthdate or age for Gesina Steenkamp on her marriage certificates to Jean "Jan" Labuschagne or Jan Nel that might help.

A birthdate on a death certificate or inventory, would help just as much...

Assuming there are baptism / birth documents for all the children, giving the father's name - the marriage registration of Gesina Sttenkamp to Jan Nel in NGK Tulbagh, Cape of Good Hope
"1754, den 29 Xbr: Jan Nel van Cabo de Goede Hoop, jongman burger aan Swellendam met Geesje Steenkamp van Cabo voornt., wedw. wijle Jan La Buscagne"

points to the fact that the children are not split between two Gesinas.
That being the case, it seems the best course of action to assume that they belong to the woman who would be 44yrs old in 1767 (the date we have for the youngest child), not 49yrs old.
Until we find a way to confirm the birthdate of the children's mother, I'm going to assume that Johanna "Jannetje" van Eck, SM named her daughter after her husband's first wife Gesina "Gijsie" Visser, SM and daughter,Gysie Steenkamp only because both were deceased. It's short on proof, but perhaps as more documents become available for transcription, we'll be able to confirm/ disprove.

Connecting the children to Gesina "Geesje" Steenkamp - the half sister.

I have created a Template Project to revert to if there is another smerge:https://www.geni.com/projects/Gesina-Steenkamp-Nel-Visser-Template/...

Briefly: Jan Steenkamp (c 1680) marries Gesina "Gijsie" Visser (1686) & has a daughter, Gesina "Gijsie" Steenkamp (1718). His wife dies, & perhaps his daughter too. He remarries Johanna van Eck (c 1705) & has another daughter, Gesina "Geesje" Steenkamp (1723). For various reasons it seems more likely that it is this 1723 daughter who married Jan Nel & gave birth to Gesina Nel (1758), rather than the 1718 daughter. However, we can't be sure of this without more documentation.

Thanks for the info regards Ilse

Pleasure :-)

Gesina Steenkamp was married to Jan Labuschagne en then to Jan Hendrik Nel . With Nel she had a daughter Gesina Nel which was then the same as her mothers name. Is that not where the confusion started?

I don't think that's the problem. We've accounted for her two marriages:

cf Gesina "Geesje" Steenkamp
Gesina "Geesje" Steenkamp bap Jul 4 1723
Parents: Jan & Johanna van Eck
x 1739 Jan La Buscagne
Jan Harm, Casper, Frans, Jannetjie, Frans

x 1754 Jan Nel
Susanna, Gesina, Jan, Gert, Willem, Louis

NOT Gesina "Gijsie" Steenkamp bap 1718

I noticed a tree conflict for Geesie Cornelia Lotter (Labuscagne), c5d4 after a merge on 7/15/2018. Curators, please take a look at this. Thank you.

Re above: Geesie Cornelia Lotter, c5d4

I merged the duplicates in accordance with Geni principles.

So, we've lost all the children of the marriage
x 1754 Jan Nel
Susanna, Gesina, Jan, Gert, Willem, Louis

I'm just unmerging until I find them again :-(

Here's the template project: Please just request to join. All welcome. https://www.geni.com/projects/Gesina-Steenkamp-Nel-Visser-Template/...