Sir Alexander de Baliol, of Barnard Castle - Alexander de Baliol's Parents

Hi Allan

I've had to disconnect William Scot from where you placed him.

You and the source are absolutely correct that there were TWO Alexander de Baliol's in this time period (actually, probably three, because Alexander "of Cavers" probably had a same name son).

Alexander "of Cavers" had a younger brother, William, who was a cleric in Holy Orders. He may have been the William of Balliol your source refers to.

Alexander "of Cavers" was not the brother of the King, he was the son of Henry & Lora. I believe it was Lora's side of the family held the hereditary position of "Chamberlain of Scotland," and that was the job Alexander had as well. This is not the King's family, they are related, but they "worked" for the King.

Alexander "of Barnard Castle" "was" the King's brother. He had no surviving children.

Your source document has good information, but is deeply flawed on their family alignment at this generation.

In the next post I will again show Alexander of Barnard Castle's brothers, they did not include anyone named William.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_I_de_Balliol is a decent start. He had sons:

1. Sir Hugh de Balliol, who died without issue before 10 April 1271. He married Agnes de Valence, daughter of William de Valence, 1st Earl of Pembroke.[2]
2. Alan de Balliol, who died before 10 April 1271 without issue.[2]
3. Sir Alexander de Balliol, who died without issue before 13 November 1278. He married Eleanor de Genoure. [2]
4. King John I of Scotland, successful competitor for the Crown in 1292.[2]

Citation:

[2] (dead link)

So in the next posts, we need additional citations for the children of John and Devorguilla.

Not a source, but a fun read:

http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/usbiography/b/johnballiol.html

"John and Devorgilla had nine children, four sons and five daughters. Their fourth son, another John Balliol, survived his three older brothers to inherit his father's titles in 1268. In 1292 the younger John Balliol became King John of Scotland. His own son, Edward Balliol, would become the disputed King of Scotland in 1332."

(so this is a "popularizer" site besides Wikipedia noting that King John was the "youngest" son of John and Devorgilla).

This is a specialty site on medieval genealogy.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm

extracting from it:

JOHN de Balliol, son of HUGH Balliol of Barnard Castle & his wife Cecilie de Fontaines (-before 27 Oct 1268).

m (1233[845]) DEVORGUILLA of Galloway, daughter of ALAN Lord of Galloway & his second wife Margaret of Scotland (-28 Jan 1290, bur Sweetheart Abbey, Kirkland).

John & his wife had children:
1. HUGH Balliol (Barnard Castle [1237/40]-[Palestine] before 10 Apr 1271)
2. ALAN Balliol (-[1271/78]).
3. ALEXANDER Balliol (-before 13 Nov 1278).
4. JOHN Balliol ([1250]-in France [either Château Gaillard, Normandy or Bailleut-en-Gouffern, Normandy] [4 Mar 1314/4 Jan 1315], bur [Church of St Waast, Normandy]). The Annales Londonienses name "Johan de Baillol" as son of "la secunde fille Aleyne, Devergoille"[870]. He succeeded his brother in [1278] as Lord of Bywell, co. Northumberland and Barnard's Castle, co. Durham. He succeeded in 1292 as JOHN King of Scotland.
5. CECILY Balliol (-[before 10 Apr 1273]).
6. ADA Balliol (-after 27 Dec 1283).
7. ALIANORE [Mary/Marjory] Balliol .

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so again, no William.

There are quite a few references about Alexander of Cavers in this link

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=tibar...

As far as I know, as mentioned on another discussion, there is only one historical, proven reference to William de Baliol: as clerk to his brother Alexander, the Chamberlain of Scotland.

This site you refer to i will admit it is well sourced with Citations at the Bottomhttp://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm so i scroled down and clicked on the Link for the Baliol Archives http://archives.balliol.ox.ac.uk/History/founders.asp#6 and when you Scol down to Here "The claim6 that "William Balliol le Scot", supposed progenitor of the family Scott of Scot's Hall, was a brother of John Balliol King of Scots (and therefore a son of the College's Founder) is quite untenable,7 as this William was brother to Alexander Balliol of Cavers, Chamberlain of Scotland, who was a distant cousin of King John Balliol. So when you click on the little 6 or 7 6 refers to the Scott's Hall Book and 7 refers to J.A.C. Vincent, The Genealogist, vi (1882), 1. So i Googled this book and Downloaded it, and i sifted through the 846 pages Carfully And there is no mention of the subject of descent of William Baliol or William Baliol le Scot at all but there is a paragraph about William Baillie of Hoprigg so in the PDF page 428 or page 204 of the actual book when viewed in adobe Acrobat some where along the line some one got the 2 Williams Confuses and set a Status Quo that every one followed including the Baliol archives Web Site because no one thought to check 846 pages maybe ut of Lazyness them selve's and so the word Untenable meaning not capable of being defended against attack or criticism : not tenable. the Auther of the book J.A.C. Vincent, The Genealogist, vi (1882), 1. did not even Mention it but the book mentions not knowing the Origins of William Baillie.
but here is the Problem, PEOPLE LIKE TO FOLLOW A STATUS QUO and then impose the idea on other people and this i might add is Mind Control people follow this Status Quo because they can not think for them selves . Judges do it, Pollititions do it because the Citizens can not think for them selve's (Look at the Mess we are in now) anyways.
Now leaving Pollitics out of this There are far more sources that support the Scott's of Scott's Hall Book and i just posted another one under the Sources Tab that not only supports that book but also Mentions Martin Bowen Scott and his Antiquity of the Name Scott tthat Justin who i might add also follows a status Quo said it was Victorian Junk, that being said how come i found More profiles here on Geni that supported it that previously had no sources such as Heber Scot or Scota the Daughter of the Pharough King.
Now as far as this book J.A.C. Vincent, The Genealogist, vi (1882), 1. mentioning not knowing the Origins of William Baillie , the Book Lives of Baillies says that the Baliol's and Baillies are of the same stock or same Blood and the bottom of Page 9 says that.
at the Bottom of Page 8 in the Lives of Baillies book it is most likey a incorrect statement that William Baliol is the son of Sir Alexander Baliol as it would conflict with the Scott's Hall Book that the Baliol Archives site refers to as number 6 on the Topic of William that suggest's that it is up to the Researcher. Now seeing how i have a YDNA Bailey Match and the Genetic distance Tip Report tool sucggests a common ancestor 24 Generations back from me (we each tested 111 markers.
In comparing Y-DNA 111 marker results, the probability that Mr. charles franklin bailey and Allan Christopher Scott shared a common ancestor within the last...

COMPARISON CHART
Generations Percentage
1 0.00%
2 0.00%
3 0.03%
4 0.20%
5 0.80%
6 2.31%
7 5.21%
8 9.86%
9 16.31%
10 24.33%
11 33.44%
12 43.03%
13 52.52%
14 61.43%
15 69.41%
16 76.28%
17 81.99%
18 86.60%
19 90.20%
20 92.96%
21 95.02%
22 96.53%
23 97.61%
24 98.38%
Refine your results with paper trail input

If traditional genealogical records indicate that a common ancestor between you and your match could not have lived in a certain number of past generations, your TiP results can be refined. Note, if you are not sure of this information, you should not change the value of "1" below.

Mr. charles franklin bailey and Allan Christopher Scott did not share a common ancestor in the last
1
generation(s).

So it only makes sense that William Baillie l be John le Scott's Brother or Alexander Baliol's Son and i would like to add that some sorces will say that William Baliol and William Baillie are also the same Person and this is where all the confusion is comming from that is causing people to say that William Baliol who frequently wrote his name William Baliol le Scot after his Grand Mother Margaret le Scot leading you and Justin to believe that John le Scot has now Baliol descent and this i might add is Foolish nonsense as SCOTLAND is called SCOTLAND For a reason Land of SCOTT"S and this is a Time Frame Before the adoption of Surnames the People had Place names maybe even Occupational names.
I know i hit it on the nail head with my comments on profiles for Sylvanus Scott and Sarah Moses and Richard Scott of Providence about Richard Heavily Gaurding his Ancestry it is still happening Today. so if you People can not open your eye's to research the Truth to the Obvious and stop Following a Status Quo that has been established for so many years do to some one misunderstanding some info than your not good Researchers, i dont care how experienced some one might be with Ancestry if there is a Citation to a source the Researcher should investigate it themselves to make sure the info and facts are correct.

Absolutely investigate for yourself! Well said.

But we have a problem on Geni, and that is presentation.

We're a collaborative site, and we aim to be the encyclopedia of genealogy, if you will. One profile per historical person, as accurate as we can (collectively) get it to be.

I think I mentioned that William le Baliol was coming up on Geni as my 21st great grandfather, so I have an interest in making as sure as I can that the linkage between me and him is accurate as can be.

And I'm not the only one who would have him as gg. :) There would be millions of us living now. You would, at a minimum, need to gain consensus from others who "relate" to this family, to continue a placement of William as brother to the King.

But there is not one history that you would be able to find that places William 'le Scot' as brother to the winner of the genealogical contest for King of Scotland.

You have a claim made by an "antiquarian," which is not the same as "historian," and that was not supported by others studying the area.

Your DNA evidence is not yet "baked." It's an indication of a possibility only, and not an the category of facts you can take to Oxford University, or yet claim as ancestral proof for a historic figure on the Geni site.

One of the references you cite above is from Baliol College of Oxford University, which was founded by John le Baliol and his wife Devorguilla of Galloway. Are you saying that a college 750 years old doesn't know the history of its founders? That would be unusual.

There aren't a lot of women in history we know as much about as we do Devorguilla, and it is through her ancestry that John claimed (and won) the Kingship.

As far as I can see, Devorguilla did not have a son called William. She did not have a son in Holy Orders. She did not have a son who was a clerk to his brother the Chamberlain. She did not have a son who was the Chamberlain of Scotland.

Another popularizer article about Devorguilla:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-22437043

I hope you follow, it's not meant to discourage your explorations. But you don't have the evidence formulated to support the claim, and a fair amount of evidence to say it was (at best) an erroneous speculation.

https://archive.org/stream/memorialsoffamil00scot#page/10/mode/2up/...

https://books.google.ca/books?id=_VMVAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA89&lpg=P...

https://books.google.ca/books?id=ThsEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA389&lpg=...

http://anemonecerridwen.net/genealogy/ScottFamily.pdf

William Baliol is on this site you mention above
"This is a specialty site on medieval genealogy."

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm
almost half way down Right under Eustace de Baliol

2. WILLIAM de Balliol (-after Jul 1296). The Ragman Roll names "Sir William de Balliol rector of Kirkepatrik" among those who swore allegiance to Edward I King of England at Montrose 12 Jul 1296[838].

http://www.minrec.org/wilson/pdfs/18.%20%20Royals.pdf

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Cfg8AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA266&lpg=...

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Cfg8AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA266&lpg=...

https://books.google.ca/books?id=rKCg4mSYWX0C&pg=PA5&lpg=PA...

https://books.google.ca/books?id=twwHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA432&lpg=...

https://books.google.ca/books?id=p6OdikFrguUC&pg=PA96&lpg=P...

http://storage.lib.uchicago.edu/pres/2008/pres2008-0097-6.pdf

http://ukga.org/england/Devon/FamilyRecords/appendix.html

http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Pub/ArchCant/010%20-%201...

http://armidalesoftware.com/issue/full/Thaler_563_main.html

Well thats a few old and new that support William being brother to John

All right, from the top. I'll have to break this up into a couple of posts.

1) https://archive.org/stream/memorialsoffamil00scot#page/10/mode/2up/.... Was debunked in somewhat scathing terms.

2) https://books.google.ca/books?id=_VMVAwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA89&dq=w... Memorials of the family of Scott, of Scot's-hall By J.R. Scott.

Repeats the old genealogical error mixing up the two Alexanders of thte era. J.R. Scott is quoting "authorities" who made the error. Medlands among other more contemporary scholars (including Baliol College of Oxford, who should know best about their founding family) make it clear.

I'm going to extract the quote in the next post and explain, one more time.

From Memorials of the Family of Scot, by J.R. Scott. The two links above are to the same book. I've gone into the text view of the archive.org version, done a "find" on Chamberlain, copied & pasted, cleaned up OCR typos.

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William " le Scot," was clerk to the Chancery to his brother Alexander, as Chamberlain of Scotland. Died about 1313, and was buried in the Monastery of Whitefriars Observants at Canterbury.

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I hadn't noticed the burial in the Monastery before, good clue that he was cleric in Holy Orders and therefore was not married. (Which doesn't preclude his having had children, of course.) That is a record or reference you should look for.

So this William is identified as clerk to his brother Alexander the Chamberlain. I need to repeat again: Alexander the Chamberlain was a different person from Alexander, brother of King John Baliol.

There is a weirdness about "clerk to the chancery of." As far as I can tell, the chancery of Scotland and the chamberlain of Scotland were different offices. What I do not know is if there was a chancery office attached to the Chamberlain's office.

(snip)

Sir William Baliol " le Scot " Chivaler was the younger brother of Alexander Baliol, sometime Chamberlain of Scotland, and Lord of Chilham Castle, Kent, who was imprisoned with his brother

88 THE SCOTTS OF SCOTS HALL.

John the unfortunate King of Scotland, in the Tower of London, a.d. 1297-8, in which fortress tradition asserts that William Baliol " le Scot" was likewise confined. ("'

In the Scottish Records lately published by the Rev. Joseph Stevenson, William Baliol appears to have acted as Clerk to the Chancery to Alexander, Chamberlain of Scotland, styled " his brother."

He does not appear to have been a soldier, ...

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In the Scottish records published by JR Stevenson, there is only the one phrase in Latin, previously quoted.

It is not clear which Alexander de Baliol was imprisoned with John the King, I would think it was his brother, Alexander of Barnard Castle, and "not" his relative Alexander of Cavers.

3) "The Christian Reformer; Or, Unitarian Magazine And Review [Ed. By R. Aspland].". 1842. Google Books. Accessed March 23 2017. https://books.google.ca/books?id=ThsEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA389&lpg=...

This is a magazine article, it cites no records.

4) http://anemonecerridwen.net/genealogy/ScottFamily.pdf

This is a family study from 1937 using Scots of Scot Hall as its source. So we're repeating the same as 1 & 2 & 3.

5) almost half way down Right under Eustace de Baliol

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm

2. WILLIAM de Balliol (-after Jul 1296). The Ragman Roll names "Sir William de Balliol rector of Kirkepatrik" among those who swore allegiance to Edward I King of England at Montrose 12 Jul 1296[838].

footnote 838:

Calendar of Documents Scotland (Bain), Vol. II, 823, p. 195

The link is:

https://archive.org/stream/calendarofdocume02grea#page/195/mode/1up

Find on text:

1296. July 12. Montrose :— Sir William de Balliol rector of Kirkepatrik, ut supra, [in. 11.]

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I suggest reading in context, it's an interesting record, and perhaps a further identification of this rector of Kirkepatrick can be made.

I also suggest a "find" on Devorguilla to understand who her children were.

6) http://www.minrec.org/wilson/pdfs/18.%20%20Royals.pdf Family study, no sources cited.

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"His father was Mitchell Scot, whose father was Sir William Scot, Chief Justiciar of England, son of John le Scot, son of Sir William Baliol. Sir William Baliol was the son of John Baliol, King of Scotland (1250-1313), son of John Baliol (d. 1269) and Devorgilla MacDonal (d. 1289)."

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Without doing a line by line comparison, i would expect the source info is Scotts of Scott Hall: same as 1, 2, 3, 4

7) https://books.google.ca/books?id=Cfg8AQAAIAAJ&lpg=PA266&dq=... Letter to the Editor published in the Patrician, 1847, John Harvey Boys.

Repeats the same and with the same wording as ... Scots of Scot Hall. Therefore the same as 1, 2, 3, 4, 6.

8) https://books.google.ca/books?id=rKCg4mSYWX0C&lpg=PA5&dq=wa... The History and Topographical Survey of the County of Kent ..., Volume 8 By Edward Hasted 1799

This is one of the sources for the Scots of Scott's Hall claim. The assertion is not supported by historians of the royal family of Scotland.

9) https://books.google.ca/books?id=twwHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA432&lpg=... England's topographer, or A new and complete history of the county of Kent By William Henry Ireland 1829

One of the sources for the Scots of Scott's Hall claim. Essentially the same as Halsted, above (8). Again, the claim the William le Scot was the brother of King John is not supported by historians.

10) https://books.google.ca/books?id=p6OdikFrguUC&pg=PA96&lpg=P... The South-Eastern Railway Manual: Describing the Cities, Towns, and Villages ... Elder Smith, 1850

Repeats the Scott's of Scott Hall claim. So the same as 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9.

11) http://storage.lib.uchicago.edu/pres/2008/pres2008-0097-6.pdf The Genealogist, page 13, "Sir Alexander Balliol of Cavers, and the Barony of Valognes."

Now we have a good study, peer reviewed, in a professional publication. We've looked at it before.

Page 3 of the article: (page 15 of the PDF file)

No evidence has been discovered to establish that this Alexander was brother of King John. ...

12) http://ukga.org/england/Devon/FamilyRecords/appendix.html England > Devon > Family Records > Appendix

Quotes from Scott's of Scott's Hall. So the same as 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.

Sorry I messed up the link for 11. The Genealogist article is http://storage.lib.uchicago.edu/pres/2008/pres2008-0097-6.pdf

13) http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Pub/ArchCant/010%20-%201... The Scott Monuments in Brabourne Church, 1876, James R. Scott, Esq., F.S.A.

The authority looks respectable, but he claims two brothers (Alexander of Cavers and William le Baliol) that King John did not have and is not a claim repeated by other than ... The Scott's of Scott Hall book.

So, the same as 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12

14) http://armidalesoftware.com/issue/full/Thaler_563_main.html Section CX: Descendants of Reginald de Bailleul David Thaler

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This is an innovation, although I've seen it before. He places William le Scot as son of John the King, which is not what Scott's of Scott Hall claims.
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10. JOHN8 BALIOL, KING OF SCOTLAND (John7, Hugh6, Eustace5, Bernard II4, Bernard I3, Hugh2, Reginald de BAILLEUL1) of Scotland, son of (7) John7 and (RL-7) Devorguilla (of GALLOWAY), (Countess) DE BALIOL, was born about 1250, and died between Feb. 1313 and June 1313 in France. [5]

Crowned at Scone, 30 Nov 1292; resigned the Crown 10 Jul 1296.[1]

Child:
+ 12 i. SIR WILLIAM BALIOL9 LE SCOT, b. about 1280/1; d. about 1312[2]

Citations:

2. Ibid., 702. Ruth Ellsworth Richardson, Samuel Richardson, 1602-1658 and Josiah Ellsworth, 1629-1689, some descendants (Eugene, Oregon?: R.E. Richardson, 1974).

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So for something other than 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13 you might want to track that one down.

Of course that's not congruent with the known pedigree:

Extracting from http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#_ftnref838

B. KINGS OF SCOTLAND 1292-1296, 1332/1336


JOHN Balliol, son of JOHN de Balliol of Barnard Castle, co Durham & his wife Devorguilla of Galloway ([1250]-in France [either Château Gaillard, Normandy or Bailleut-en-Gouffern, Normandy] [4 Mar 1314/4 Jan 1315], bur [Church of St Waast, Normandy]).

King John & his wife had [two] children:
1. EDWARD Balliol (-[May 1363/Sep 1365]).
2. [HENRY Balliol (-killed in battle Annan 16 Dec 1332).

i have been wondering about the Intimate connection between William and Alexander
when it loads second Paragraph up from the Bottom of Page 88 on the left
i have to go to work
https://archive.org/stream/memorialsoffamil00scot#page/88/mode/2up/...

The top of page 89 gives a reference you could try to track down:

The authority adduced (infer alia) for making Sir William Baliol "le Scot" the younger brother of the King of Scotland is the yield. MSS. Brit. Museum, 55-10, fol. 188, which purports to be " The true descent and lineage of the ancient and knightly famihj of Scot, descended from the noble family of Baliol, alias le Scot, of the kingdom of Scotland."

I dont think you've mentioned the Notes & Queries article. They state unequivocally that William was not King John's brother, and were unable to find a Monastery of White Friars Observants. They suggest a pretty good pedigree for Baliol is in Robertson's Ayrshire Families

https://books.google.com/books?id=d7ymxs8hx6AC&lpg=PA433&ot...

The Book The Lives of Baillies if you download the PDF and open it on 22 of the 76 pages of the PDF or the end of Page 7 and page 8 indicate that William is Alexander's Baliol's Son and the Bottom of Page 9 is suggesting that the Baillies and the Baliol's are the same Family.

I Have seen People Place William Baillie as a Brother to John le Scot, and that makes me wonder about William Baliol's Unknown Wife, If William Baliol (le Scot) was Alexander's Brother and John's Brother, i Wonder if it is Possible that there was a non Paternal event making William Baillie only a half Brother to John le Scot leading to William Baliol's wife Unknown on Purpose, now what comes to mind who was locked in the Tower again ? when and why.
Maybe my YDNA Matches and Results can shed some light but it will take a bit of time yet, for example I match some Wallace's in the YDNA Wallace Group that have a specific SNP in there DNA and those Wallace's fit that Classic William Wallace line , ill work at trying to find out if that SNP might be shared with the Baillies also as YDNA is passed down male lines and ill also work with my Wallace matches in the Wallace group to see if we can find a common ancestor then work down from there to help make some sense and get the line correct, i have recently Joined some other DNA Groups and surname groups also Bruce being one of them. YDNA Surname Matches i have to name a few are Macdonald, Bell, Bello,Bellow, Bellefeuille, Bailey,Bruce,Wyatt and Many others that would descend from the Baliol Family

If you're looking at the Wallace matches, I think you would find that you're working with a hundred year later "William le Scot," indeed perhaps down the Alexander of Cavers progeny. And that is a (slightly) easier approach to take, there (should) be more surviving documents to work with also.