Arthur Ignatius Conan Doyle - Sir Arthur and Benidict Cumberbatch's comman ancestor was John of Gault why is Sir Arthur's family tree only 50 people?

Started by Private User on Monday, January 2, 2017
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Private User
1/2/2017 at 11:10 PM

If this is the case and Sir Arthur's ancestor was John of Gault and so was Benedict Cumberbatch who plays Sherlock Holmes then why is Sir Arthur's line on here only like 50 people?

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/researchers-find-cumb...

Genealogy detectives have discovered that Benedict Cumberbatch, the British actor who portrays Sherlock Holmes in the PBS television series, is distantly related to the author who created the iconic character more than a century ago.

Cumberbatch, 40, and the late Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who died in 1930, were 16th cousins, twice removed, according to the web site Ancestry.com.

Cumberbatch and "Sherlock" return for three new episodes beginning Sunday night. With the British actor rocketing to movie stardom, it's likely to be his last time in the character.

Ancestry.com wasn't asked to dig into the backgrounds of Cumberbatch and Doyle, but its researchers love both the series and historical puzzles, said spokesman Dallin Hatch. They haven't told the actor of the connection.

Doyle and Cumberbatch's common ancestor was John of Gaunt, the duke of Lancaster and the fourth son of King Edward III of England, who lived in the 14th Century, the website said. John of Gaunt was Doyle's 15th great-grandfather and Cumberbatch's 17th great-grandfather.

"Making family history connections is similar to piecing together a mysterious puzzle, one that the great Sherlock Holmes himself would be intrigued to solve," said Lisa Elzey, family historian at Ancestry.

Holmes and sidekick John Watson, played in the PBS series by Martin Freeman, came to life in a novel written in 1890, and were featured in dozens more detective stories.

1/3/2017 at 12:21 AM

Private User

I saw that!

I presume that no one has worked on either of the ancestry's enough to make the geni connection also. Go for it! Or at least ... A bit of it, then should be able to "hook in" to the existing tree.

Private User
1/3/2017 at 1:17 AM

Thanks Erica! Will do. Happy New Year!

1/3/2017 at 9:27 AM

Here is the connection between them:
http://mashable.com/2017/01/03/benedict-cumberbatch-sherlock-related/

The concern would be what they mean by Ancestry researchers - Ancestry.com staff or random people on Ancestry.com? The latter not being known for their rock solid research, although typing this on Geni.com might get some pot/kettle/black comments. So to prove those hypothetical naysayers wrong, as we have the path, this would be a chance to make sure all the steps are nailed down with sources. Good luck!

Apparently this would also make him related to Alan Turing and Richard III, both roles he has played (the latter in The Hollow Crown, which also included Patrick Stewart as John of Gaunt in an earlier episode). Extra points if someone can link him to Julian Assange and a solid gold crown if you can get a connection to Smaug.

1/3/2017 at 9:52 AM

The ACD trail runs out quickly at Catherine Foley

Following the trail down it seems to peter out at Mary Percy (which suggests we are just missing three links).

There may be confusion there as her grandfather is Sir William Parsons, 1st Baronet of Bellamont

But his brother is William Parsons of Beaminster

Which seems to be one too many William Parsons.

1/3/2017 at 11:49 AM

My connection to Doyle passes through my mom's side of the family eventually connecting through Mormon Apostle Heber C. Kimball and from him through his descendant's connection with Hollywood Actor Rudolph Valetino. A very curios path indeed.

https://www.geni.com/path/Randy-Stebbing+is+related+to+Arthur-Ignat...

1/3/2017 at 3:52 PM

I finally got a path going thanks to the genealogy work of Private User among others - I go through Corporal Philip Snell Empey, U.E.L

1/3/2017 at 7:02 PM
1/6/2017 at 11:49 PM

Private User we've expanded Sir Conan Doyle's family tree from 50 or so to 384. He had quite the interesting background and associates.

Private User
1/7/2017 at 9:55 AM

Great Erica! Haven't had a chance to work on this but thanks for the progression.

1/8/2017 at 6:44 AM

Good work Erica.

There is no a closer but more circuitous connection:

https://www.geni.com/path/Benedict-Cumberbatch+is+related+to+Arthur...

1/8/2017 at 10:43 AM

Bill, thank you for your work on the tree.

I just found an interesting connection

Ray Bradbury is Arthur Ignatius Conan Doyle's second cousin once removed's husband's third cousin twice removed.

https://www.geni.com/path/Arthur-Ignatius-Conan-Doyle+is+related+to...

1/9/2017 at 9:24 PM

I'm having trouble with birth date, parents & wives for this profile

Matthew Scott, of Carrick-on-Suir

He was the father of Conan Doyle's great grandmother and the nephew of the John Scott, 1st Earl of Clonmell

His story is tragic ....

Help desired.

1/10/2017 at 6:53 PM

Tricky one as you are beyond the limits of conventional records but being connected to posh folk does mean there is some information around.

Unfortunately he left no will, which would have been the next step.

However, this suggests [Thomas Scott Thomas Scott] only had four sons, one of whom had no issue and another as the 1st earl of Clonmell:

"Prim, finding a great demand for timber, he and Scott joined and purchased several woods, and Prim, being well versed in the management of them, advertised for all the artificers he could get, and made a property for self and Scott's two sons ; as their father and mother dying soon after the second as born, they both married two of the daughters of Prim. The youngest had no issue alive ; but the eldest, Thos. Scott, left Michael, father of the present dean, John Scott, eldest son, and Mark, his second (father of the present Thomas Scott), and his third son, John, afterwards Lord Clonmell, and Mathew, the fourth and youngest, who left no issue alive after him."

https://books.google.com/books?id=544BAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA204

So we don't have many options for the father of Matthew Scott, of Carrick-on-Suir - if we are 100% sure the Earl is his uncle, then his father must be either Michael or Mark Scott.

1/10/2017 at 9:23 PM

According to "A Curious History," Matthew Scott the youngest had his will executed by Abraham Prim, so if we can find that will date, we may be able to rule in / out Matthew of Carrick-on-Suir as his son.

Mark was the executor of his father Thomas' will, so that gives

We're pretty sure that Lord Clonmell was Matthew of Carrick-on-Suir's uncle. It's an explicit part of his story that unfortunately his uncle had already died before Matthew could call on his assistance in his troubles.

1/10/2017 at 9:26 PM

I noticed that a General St John was part of Matthew Scott's story. Any relation to unknown St. John

1/10/2017 at 9:35 PM

Whoa, Mark Scott died at Carrick-on-Suir. Doesn't that suggest him as Matthew's father?

http://www.irelandoldnews.com/Derry/1775/DEC.html

Londonderry Journal; Friday, December 29, 1775

Dublin.
Died: at Carrick-on-Suir, Mark Scott, Mohubber, brother of the Solicitor General;

1/10/2017 at 9:38 PM

JAMES RYAN'S COMMONPLACE BOOK - "A Carrickman's Diary" - 1787 - 1809

http://www.daltondatabank.org/Commonplace_Book.pdf

1788 - Mr. Matthew Scott removed from Waterford to Carrick about the same time I removed to Bridge Lane.

1/10/2017 at 9:45 PM

OK, now I see a good summary of what led to the indemnity bill, and have learned from it that there's a Doyle in this story also.

http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/archive/index.php/t-3660.html

Mad, bad and Irish

FLOGGING FITZ
Thomas Judkin FitzGerald was High Sheriff of Tipperary in 1798.He must have been a prophetic choice for the post in the year of the Rebellion when the activities that gave him his nickname were commonplace.However the Sheriff carried out his duties with such dedication as to make them remarkable in a brutal phase of Irish history.

FitzGerald was from Co.Cork but resided near Cashel in Co.Tipperary.When appointed Sheriff he took it as his mission to purge the county of rebellion,though in truth there was little evidence of a populace ready to rise.In fact a small group of United Irishmen were planning to attack the town of Clonmel in July of 1798 but the plan was betrayed by an informer and the leaders arrested.

Despite the fact that he was supposed to be an instrument of the law not much guilt or proof of it was required to fall foul of the Sheriff.In modern terms he was a dangerous psychopath who was known to have men flogged for not taking off their hats as he rode by or merely because they looked like croppies to him.What was worse he was a law unto himself-judge,jury and executioner.

His practice was to ride into a town or village with an escort of soldiers and “purify” the town.So in the village of Clogheen the inhabitants were forced to kneel in deference to the Sheriff while the local innkeeper, Jeremiah McGrath,was flogged. In Clonmel town anybody suspected of being a rebel was arrested and on market days tied to the back of a cart,which was then pulled the length of the main street, from the Main Guard (a building in the town center) to the West Gate of the town.Two soldiers flogged the unfortunate man as he was pulled along.Peasant or gentleman made no difference to Fitz. Bernard Wright was a teacher of French who almost died from a flogging. Happily he later sued the Sheriff and was awarded £500 in damages.

Flogging Fitz visited the town of Carrick on Suir on June 22nd 1798,the day after the Battle of Vinegar Hill,though nobody in town had yet heard of the battle.On the evidence of a prisoner from Clonmel Jail,Stephen Devany,who was,ironically enough,serving a sentence for perjury twelve men of the town were arrested.They included the Parish priest,a Protestant merchant named Matthew Scott,Daniel and Patrick Boyle who were cloth merchants and Francis White another prominent merchant,David Wells and Francis Doyle a 27 year old draper.Despite the intervention of Rev James Smyth,the local Protestant Clergyman,Captain Laurence Jephson of the local yeomanry and Charles Wall a prominent landowner,four of the prisoners were summarily flogged in the market place.Francis Doyle seems to have suffered the most brutal treatment.He was tied to a ladder and given 50 lashes on the back while FitzGerald harangued the townspeople.Fainting under the lash he was revived and given another 50 lashes to the lower body after his trousers were cut off.Not unnaturally Doyle sued FitzGerald.

The case was heard in Clonmel Assizes,opening before Lord Avonmore on the 9th of April 1801.Having already been sued by Bernard Wright and with other cases pending,FitzGerald had petitioned Parliament to push through an Act of Parliament granting him legal immunity for any act committed in suppressing the rebellion.No doubt throughout the country there were many more like Tipperary’s High Sheriff because the outcome was the Indemnity Act which,despite the sympathy of Judge and Jury,ensured that Doyle lost his case.To add insult to injury he had to pay double the costs to the defendant as well as his own legal bill.In all he had to pay £700.In order to vindicate his name Doyle had the transcripts of the trial published privately in 1808.His friends in Carrick on Suir helped with subscriptions but the family financial situation was probably always desperate as his only son Peter died a pauper in 1845.

In contrast, Flogging Fitz was created a Baronet and awarded a pension. He died in 1810.

Howling mad and very, very bad.

1/10/2017 at 10:42 PM

hmmmmm....THE GAMES AFOOT Watson.

1/10/2017 at 11:00 PM

''Never Theorize before you have Data,...Invariably you End up Twisting facts to suit Theories instead of Theories to suit facts''. ....--Sherlock Holmes. ...

1/11/2017 at 12:19 AM

this is a wonderful tree to explore, packed with stories to be found.

1/11/2017 at 6:26 AM

Erica, the presence of Mark Scott at Carrick-on-Suir makes him the most likely candidate.

What we'd need is one or more of the Scott brother's wills - their father being intestate was clearly unusual enough for such a connected family that it was worth noting. Obviously. Michael or Mark's would rule one out or in, but Matthew's could also be useful as he had no issue and would have had to hand out his goods to his brothers or their children.

1/11/2017 at 7:49 AM

Lord Clonmere had a diary published, i wonder if that is findable? Any resource sites for irish probate records?

1/11/2017 at 8:55 AM

Why I love Genealogy ....It's so much like an old unsolved novel Mystery .......finding clues,DNA,proof,Records,Diary's and Grave yards .....ha ha ha ha.

1/11/2017 at 3:24 PM

Yes graveyards is one I was pondering - finding a gravestone from that period might be asking too much, but if the monument was in the local church... It'd be worth asking around for someone familiar with the parish.

On the wills, there is an index going back to 1484:
https://familysearch.org/wiki/en/Ireland_Probate_Records

You can search for it on FindMyPast (unfortunately, my subscription has run out and I won't be picking it up again for a bit):
http://www.findmypast.ie/articles/world-records/full-list-of-the-ir...

1/11/2017 at 7:29 PM

Not much for Matthew Scott but there is a record for Mark Scott who died in 1775 in the Tipperary Clans Archive:

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/ireland-records?firstname=ma...

The TCA is:

"This collection contains indexes and transcripts of newspapers, gravestone inscriptions and various publications gathered by the Tipperary Clans Heritage Society in the 1990s. This group focused on information which pre-dated civil registration (1864), and is principally obituaries, death/funeral notices and burials."

http://www.findmypast.com/articles/world-records/full-list-of-the-i...

I wouldn't be surprised if it is the record we already have from him.

1/11/2017 at 7:39 PM

FMP also have a newspaper article on a Matthew Scott who died at Ormonde Mills (from 1865, but it seems to be extracts from older articles):

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search/irish-newspapers?firstname=ma...

1/12/2017 at 1:34 AM

A related Scott family

"His father was a descendant of the Duke of Buccleuch who came over with the King’s army and settled in Ireland, Lord Clonmel being descended from another branch of the Scott family. "

https://laoishouses.wordpress.com/2016/04/

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