John Smith, of Rivenhall - is the Carington Smith pedigree fraudulent?

Something interesting regarding a Sir Peter Legh:

https://archive.org/stream/historyofhouseof00beam/historyofhouseof0...

"The honourable wound Sir Peter Legh had received at Agincourt, had not subdued his warlike spirit, for in 1418, having enrolled himself under the banner of Sir John Blount, a great soldier, who like himself had shared the glories of Agincourt, he joined the second host to France and sailed with it."

Interesting that we find mention of a Sir John Blount, a man affiliated with John Carrington alias Smyth, in this narrative.

This is very interesting.

Chris

Just so it is clear what I am suggesting, the one story says John Carrington of Carrington went a raiding on Sir William Atherton, along with Sir Peter Legh. What I just previously posted now shows a Sir Peter Legh serving under Sir John Blount, a man who is likely to be the companion of John Carrington alias Smyth, a man who changed his name to Croke.

Hmmm?

Chris, I think the "of Carrington" refers to the "lord of the manor."

I could be wrong, but the John Carrington narrative says specifically that he was "not" the lord of the manor; he would not have had the right to call himself "the" Carrington of Carrington.

BUT the narrative says that his brother Edmund (and elsewhere, George) became the lord ... that when he returned from Italy he stayed in hiding as Smith (why when the regime changed?) instead of claiming his patrinomy.

BUT if there's an heir dead or disappeared on visitations, with a brother Edmund (or George) who had a son John in 1419, lord of the manor, shouldn't that be showing on Visitations?

Found this. Has Latin quotes about Carringtons related to Andrew Carrington.

https://books.google.com/books?id=DYY1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA518&lpg...

Have we researched who a "Robert Arden" was? He is suggested to have been John Smyth's (who claimed Carrington ancestry) primary companion as mentioned in his mini-autobiography.

I have a _terrible_ memory. Sorry for the repost.

Ok, correction. Nicholas le Blount was John Carringtons acquaintence, not Sir John Blount. I still am curious if the Sir Thomas Blount who was gruesomely killed was related to the guy who Sir Peter Legh served under. There is also a Robarte Blount mentioned in the original narrative of John Carrington alias Smyth.

It might be useful to list all the characters from the narrative, their date, location & geni profile (if any)

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=ances...

With comment expressing some skepticism from compiler Richard Hodgson:

"[It is hard to see how he could have been active in 1399 and have a brother summoned to Parliament in 1326, 63 years earlier.]"

Hodgson cites Burke's. So you need to look for other sources.

Found on page 27 of Copinger's book:

"John de Carington, son and heir of Sir William (I i) and Anne, Lord of the Manor of Carrington, Ashton, and &c., owed Elena, who was the wife of John de Legh. L40 in 1323."

Interesting that we find a "John de Carington", who is said to have been the Lord of the Manor of Carrington, as having been involved with a John de Legh.

This is far earlier that I would have expected with John Smyth's suggested name change having taken place around 1404.

So perhaps there was an older "John de Carington"? The book says he was a son of a "William de Carington" (Lord of the Manor of Carrington) and Anne Farnell, daughter of Sir Edmund Farnell.

According to a passage on page 30 of Copinger's book, he quotes the notes of Laurence Bostock whose notes date from 1640. It says "Johannes de Carington" married "Sibbillæ de Rixton."

"Johannes de Carington, dedit, &c., Willielmo de Carington filio suo, &c., Et (concensu) Sibbillæ uxoris ejus filie Alani de Rixton," &c., 1335 9 Edw III

Yes, I would expect multiple John Carrington's in the Carrington tree.

Ok, here's a confusing one...

Page 65 of Copinger's Book

John Carington alias Smyth
-only son and heir of Robert de Carington (K 2) (who took the name of "Smyth" in 1364 from his mother's name "le Smyth").
-said to have died around 1400
-also said to have been a party to a fine in 1411 (different John Smyth?) (need to verify location)
-again said to be a party to a fine in 1414 (need to verify location).
-died in 1400(?!) leaving a son Thomas.
-Thomas is said to have died without issue and his possessions passed to his cousin, John Smith alias Carington (not known if by purchase or inheritance)

This Robert de Carington has a similar narrative as that of John Smyth alias Carington's. Hmm... I need to see more proof that this Robert de Carington alias Smyth actually existed.

One other thing on my mind... I understand the desire for anonymity in certain situations, hence the changing of one's last name would definitely seem practical. However, one detail eludes me: why Smyth? Why did le Blount chose Croke and fitzWilliams chose English?

Perhaps this last issue is one we may never have an answer to. I'm puzzling on it because of Copinger's refernce to a "Robert de Carrington" who is suggested to have married an "Alicia le Smyth" daughter of a "William le Smyth". This Robert is said to have changd his name to Smyth as well and was a son of "John Carrington" and "Sibilla Rixton".

Re: -Thomas is said to have died without issue and his possessions passed to his cousin, John Smith alias Carington (not known if by purchase or inheritance)

What possessions where & when? There could be records of property transfers.

Cheshire is a long way from Essex.

John Carrington als Smith of Essex is not said to have owned any property in Cheshire. Indeed Andy Lancaster suspects there was a Smith property owning family near Rivenhall before 1404.

Going through the original John Carington narrative, I found a latin passage that is interesting:

Et haec supra few erant propria scripta,
manu ejusdem Johannes Carington et relata,
erant relictæ uxori nomine Milicentia,
paulum antequam obiit.

My best translation with Google translate:

And these few were his own writings
reported in the hand of John Carington
and they were left to his wife named Milicentia
shortly before his death.

Chris

Note: John Hende is said to have been a mayor of London during temp. Henry IV.

This website supports that claim.

John Hynde, a draper, was Mayor twice and Sheriff once.

http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Documents/mayors_and_sheriffs_of_londo...

Also, this book shows a connection between a Hynde and Cursson family (pg 90 to 91).

https://archive.org/stream/visitacionievisi32ryew#page/90/mode/2up/...

On pg. 256 and 257 are Smyth trees. I believe them to be accurate.

So this is saying that John Smyth's wife's mother was related to a John Hynde, and we find that there was a John Hynde related to a Cursson family.

Hmm.

The above book appears to have been based off of:

The Visitations of Norfolk:
of 1563 by Wm. Hervey, Clarencieux,
of 1589 by Robert Cooke, Clarencieux, and
of 1613 by John Raven, Richmond,
were combined into one collection by R. Mundy about 1620, and now form Harl. MS. 1552.

It's content seems very credible, was written using Cooke's work and before J H Round.

Sorry, "Cursonn" not "Cursson".

The Smyth tree on pg 257 can be supplemented with the will of John Smyth of Blackmore found here:

http://www.blackmorehistory.co.uk/blackmore_john_smyth_will.html

Hynde is a good tree to pursue, as that seemed factual according to Andy Lancaster. He was looking for further connections between Hynde & Smith families in Essex.

What is the estimated date for that marriage?

I see a little more about Curzon of Norfolk here:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_Norfolk/Volume_1/Shropham

In 1414, John, son of Sir John Curson, Knt. released all his right in the manor, late the Lady Felton's, to John Clifton, Tho. Lopham, and other feoffees, together with Ingaldesthorp, Belagh, and Dersingham manors in Norfolk, and Barrow in Suffolk.
In 1470, Sir John Curson of Beckhalle in Belagh, Knt. gave this manor to Thomas, his son and heir, reserving several annuities; he was lord of Ingaldesthorp, &c. and died this year. In 1511, it appears by the will of Thomas Curson, Esq. son and heir of Sir John, that he gave Wilby and Darsingham manors to John his son, it being then held of the Earl of Arundell, as of Castle-Acre manor. In 1546, John Curson, Esq. died seized, and William was his son and heir, who had now livery of this, Ingaldesthorp, Darsingham, Byntre, Beckhall in Belagh, Harple, and many other manors.

Here's another interesting topic: a Lord Darey. His name was either Arthur or Thomas Darey/Darcy. He had a home at St. Osyth's and was charged with keeping munitions there by the privy council. (See pg 300)

https://books.google.com/books?id=D8lCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA478&lpg...

See page 136 (shown as 130 in the OCR text)
https://archive.org/stream/londonmiddlesexo31bray/londonmiddlesexo3...

Here is the will of John Turner whose daughter Margaret married a Thomas Smyth (of Blackmore)

This Thomas's sons and daughters are listed. This should be good to compare against visitation records.

http://www.oxford-shakespeare.com/Probate/PROB_11-61_ff_274-7.pdf

One thing keeps stirring in my mind... How can Round be so dismissive of the records entered into "the college" by the heraldic authorities?

Here are some more names from the original John Smyth of Rivenhall document.

---
Sir Thomas Wake, husband of Katherine Carrington (she was a sister to Sir Thomas Carrington, and they were both Seneschalls of Rovergne in Gasconye, France)

William Laynton (husband of Anne, sister to John Smyth alias Carrington of Rivenhall)
Jane Ferris, wife of Edmund Carrington
Isabell Carrington, wife of Thomas Neville
John Trayntham
Lord Spencer (aid to Earls of Salisbury, Kent, and Huntington)
Myles Hubbarde (alerted Henry IV of the Epiphany Rising plot)
Robartt Ardene (of Alvanly, Cheshire, buried in Greyfreyers Church in Bizanson, Gascongne, France)

William Linseye
John Gallias, Viscompte, Duke of Milan, Italy.
Emperor Robartte
William Northburie
Richard Blunte
Robarte Brickette
Count Albericoe (in Spain)
Bentivolio (Bolonia)
William Cursonne
Sir John Cursonne
Elleyne Carrington (sister of Thomas Carrington of Rovergne, Gasconge)
Mr. Baynard (first husband of Anne Gernon)

Spouses of daughters of John Carrington alias Smyth (Edwards, Wightbread, and Mone (Mone being specifically of Rivenhall)

---

So many details to have fabricated... Then again, story tellers can be adept at deception. But was Cooke a story teller? Was John Smyth of Rivenhall a story teller?

Or perhaps John was simply telling to his wife his life story?

See page 199 of the following:

https://books.google.com/books?id=8jNWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA201&lpg...

It mentions, only by title, the Seneschal of Rovergne as having brought troops to the fight. Maybe there's some more names we can glean from here?

Very good reference for "Seneschal of Auvergne" mentioning "a squire" named "Carenton".

https://books.google.com/books?id=tSBEAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA504&lpg...

Pg. 504

re: One thing keeps stirring in my mind... How can Round be so dismissive of the records entered into "the college" by the heraldic authorities?

They were NOT entered into the "college of arms." Round checked that there was official from the Herald at Arms; there were not. Give me a little bit and I will give you the exact quote.

A side comment that false pedigrees came up during the Tudor era in discussing another example of it.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2014-07/...

"Back to imposture, it was quite common during the Tudor era for newly rising families to pretend to be old Norman families, and to link themselves to families they had nothing to do with. Some even forged documents! There's a classic study: J. Horace Round, 'The Great Carrington Imposture' in his "Peerage and Pedigree: Studies in Peerage Law and Family History", ii. (London: James Nisbet & Co., 1910), 134-257"

Correction, I get ahead of myself...

A Sir Aleyne Boxhull left as "governor" of "St. Sauveur le Vicomte in Coutain" "a squire" named "Carentan".

Looks like he was among forces who engaged a French assault.

Here's a picture of the fortification.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Sauveur-le-Vicomte

I wonder if we could be dealing with a story by a man (John Carrington) recounting the life of his father (Thomas Carrington) with a small amount of i) embellishment and ii) error due to not knowing every detail of his father's life?

From the full text https://archive.org/stream/peeragepedigrees01rounuoft/peeragepedigr...

As I have demolished, once for all, the whole
Carington ' story, I wish, in justice to the College
of Arms, to point out that it has not accepted, in
its corporate and official capacity, that story as
genuine. It is indeed asserted in Burke's Landed
Gentry, and the assertion is prominently cited in

PREFACE xxi

Dr. Copinger's book — that over 700 years of the
descent has been " registered " in the College of
Arms, but I am assured that the ' Carington ' des-
cent has not been officially " recorded. " With
regard to the later pedigree, from Tudor times
downwards, it will be found to raise a question of
great interest to genealogists, namely the proof of
descent, where identity is the main issue.