John Smith, of Rivenhall - is the Carington Smith pedigree fraudulent?

To tag a geni profile to a discussion, copy / paste the URL from the profile into the body of the message. The advantage (for posterity) is that then the whole discussion is linked to the profile on the "discussion" tab. So for some profiles (say, Queen Elizabeth) there will are many discussions where she is referenced, and we've now built up "new" data points that may prove of interest in the future. (Or not so much. :)) If it doesn't done in that way then one would have to pick through "this" discussion again to find the reference.

The easiest way for me to find a geni profile is (name date) geni.com in google.

There are in fact English records of non nobility. Medieval England was a litigious society, kept track of their property in writing, taxed and were taxed, traveled, wrote wills, were buried, etc. Parish registers of baptisms are not extant in many places before the mid 1500s, but perhaps others are. (I mention this last because that is our American challenge to trace English forbearers: there just aren't birth records.)

As Chris says, more and more records are coming online all the time, and commoners are referenced in these records.

The challenge is properly analyzing the references and constructing trees of them. This is where peer review is helpful.

Erica Howton I will request that you remove the definite statement of this lineage being "disproven" by J H Round. You selectively chose to cite him over all other evidence. I do not feel you are fairly representing all of the information we have covered on the main page. Thank you.

Perhaps it would be fair to say, instead, that no *primary source* evidence has been located to support the connection except for the disputed autobiography.

(It would be a huge help to have a set of fresh eyes on that document, belonging to someone who can tell what time period it was likely written in and whether it appears to be authentic. )

But are there any other PRIMARY sources? Deeds, court records, wills, etc. Has anyone found anything, from his lifetime, showing that John Carington existed, or that Thomas Carington had any recorded children? Thomas's son Edmund is supposed to have inherited the manor, but he doesn't seem to exist.

If there are no other primary sources, perhaps Round's treatment of silly old Copinger is irrelevant.

Round is also not the only antiquarian to doubt this connection. This journal from 1894 questions whether the lineage should have been allowed into Burke's Peerage:

NOTES AND QUERIES:

A Medium of Intercommunication
FOR
LITERARY MEN, GENERAL READERS, ETC.

EIGHTH SERIES. VOLUME SIXTH.
JULY DECEMBER 1894.
LONDON:
PUBLISHED AT THE OFFICE, BREAM'S BUILDINGS, CHANCERY LANE, EC.
BY JOHN C. FRANCIS

p.21
SOME NOTES ON BURKE'S ' LANDED GENTRY.'
It was hoped by many genealogists that when Burke's * Landed Gentry' got into the hands of its new editors it would become a really trustworthy and scientific collection of the pedigrees of our untitled aristocracy. An examination of the new edition will certainly blast their hopes. Some of the grosser forgeries have disappeared, but there remain very many doubtful pedigrees....
p. 23
Smith - Carington (p. 1859). Is there any authority for connecting the Smith family with the ancient Caringtons? There does not seen any good reason why John Carington's temporary disguise of Smith should have been perpetuated by his decendants. This John Carington, alias Smith, was born 1374 and died 1446. His son, Hugh Smith, died 1485, leaving a son Sir John, died 1547. The generations are suspiciously long.

http://scans.library.utoronto.ca/pdf/3/13/s8notesqueries06londuoft/...

Unfortunately many genealogists seemed to feel that after Round, doing any more to disprove this connection would be a waste of time. Copinger's Carington-Smith genealogy (obviously flawed, whatever we think of Round) is still widely accepted and cited in trees all over the internet--seems like a good time for a fresh criticism of Copinger, perhaps with a more even-handed tone.....

Here are some records, etc., some of which are primary sources, but most deal with John Carington als.Smith's father Thomas, grandfather William, and

uncle George. Just in terms of primary sources, I cannot find evidence that John Carington als. Smith existed. Yet his father, uncle, nephews, and

especially his grandfather left behind lots of records.

(I would argue that without primary sources, it's not genealogy, it's storytelling.)

The existing deeds and other records, or at least what I have located, appear to back up Horace Round as well as the "Carrington of Carington"

genealogy in Ormerod's History of Cheshire. If there is a stone left unturned, if someone would post additional material here, it would be

appreciated.

Most of these records are for Sir William Carington (blinded at Sluys), his son Sir Thomas Carington, and Thomas's brother Sir George. Unable to

find records which pertain to any children of Thomas (alleged to be Edmund and John).

Need records to establish John, son of Thomas, for the argument to get off the ground.

=====================================

Sir William Carington, son of John Carington and either Sibil Rixton (see deeds) or Cecily Hyde (see Ormerod).

William Carington, of Carington

George, who inherited Carington Manor at Carington, Cheshire (which is now in Greater Manchester)

George Carington, of Carington

Sir Thomas Carrington, died 1383. [Sir Thomas doesn't have a profile in the right place, if Ormerod's genealogy is correct]

Sir John Carrington als. Smith, c1370-1446? (no records?)

Copinger has John born 1374, yet Round points out that this doesn't line up well with Neville's timeline: "Sir John Nevill was a famous soldier, who

was made Lieutenant of Aquitaine in 1378 and landed in Gascony that year (i September). His busy stay in that stormy province only extended to the

summer of 1381, so that we are asked to believe that the infant John was removed from the Carington nursery at the age of four, shipped off to

Gascony to be " nurterede " by a busy general, and trained by him in the King's service to the age, at most, of seven !"

See John Neville at Wikipedia, with footnotes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Neville,_3rd_Baron_Neville_de_Raby

and at Geni: John de Neville, 3rd Baron Neville de Raby

Copinger shows John with a brother Edmund, died 1398, and has Sir John flee England in late 1399, and take the name of Smith in 1416.

Round continues: "the next certain lord of Carington [after Sir Thomas] is Sir George de Carington, who was undoubtedly in possession in 1402, and

apparently so at least as early as 1397."

============================================================================================

Ormerod's History of Cheshire backs up Round (see also the footnotes). Missing some of what we usually see in Carington genealogies, however, such

as Thomas's wife Margaret being a Roos. (More on her below)

Carrington of Carrington

page 554 of The History of the County Palatine and City of Chester: Comp. from ..., Volume 1 By George Ormerod. "Carington of Carington."

https://books.google.com/books?id=DYY1AQAAMAAJ&lpg=PA543&ot...

The man who inherited Carington manor from Thomas Carington appears to have been his brother, George Carington c1375- aft 1426 m. Elizabeth Warren:

http://genealogy.billwilson.us/getperson.php?personID=I10219&tr...

But Ormerod shows Thomas Carington, Knight, dying o.s.p.

See also Geni:

George Carington, of Carington

=====================================

DEEDS from Cheshire

Feoffment of an Estate Tail
Reference Number(s) GB 133 EGR1/2/1/2; GB 133 Former reference: bundle E2.
Dates of Creation 24 Aug 1335
Language of Material Language: Latin.
Physical Description Indenture.
Scope and Content
Parties: 1) John de Carington

2) William son of John de Carington, and Sybil his wife, daughter of Alan de Rixton

Property: all (1)'s lands and tenements in Partington, and all lands and tenements that Matthew del Both holds from (1) in Carrington for term of

years.

To (2) in tail general, remainder to William and his heirs for ever.

Rent charge: one rose per annum.

Warranty clause.

Witnesses: Robert le Masci of Sale, Thomas de Asshton, John de Venables of Ashton [?upon Mersey], Thomas le Criour of [?Over Knutsford] ("Both"),

William Backynsone and others.

Dated at: Carrington.

Endorsed: "9 E 3, No 2".

http://tub.archiveshub.ac.uk/data/gb133-egr1-3/egr1.html?page=11

======================================

DEEDS covering a long time - useful for timeline! The following pertain to the generations of interest:

http://archives.li.man.ac.uk/ead/search?operation=full&recid=gb...

Feoffment of an Estate Tail (8 Nov 1358 )
Reference GB 133 EGR1/2/1/6
GB 133 Former reference: bundle E2.
Physical Description Deed poll.
Language of Material Language: Latin.
Scope and Content
Parties: 1) Thomas [de Assheton] rector of Ashton upon Mersey parish church

2) Sir William de Carington, and Matilda his wife

Property: all lands, tenements, rents etc. that (1) has in Stockport, Hattersley and Mottram in Longdendale by the gift of (2).

To (2), remainder to Thomas son of (2) and his heirs for ever.

Witnesses: Richard Fytoun, John Fiton, Sir Robert de Legh, Robert de Staucklegh, Nicholas de Verdon and others.

Dated at: Bottoms Hall [to. Hattersley] ("Bothums").

Endorsed: i) "William Carrington"; ii) "32 E 3 (No 2)".

Conditional Feoffment (7 Feb 1381/2 )
Reference GB 133 EGR1/2/1/8
GB 133 Former reference: bundle E2.
Physical Description Deed poll.
Language of Material Language: Latin.
Scope and Content
Parties: 1) Peter del Schagh rector of a moiety of Lymm church

2) Sir William de Carynton, and Matilda his wife

(1) conveys the property in EGR1/2/1/7 above to (2) for life, remainder in tail male to Sir Thomas Carynton son of (2), with successive remainders in

tail male to Edward, George and Arthur, younger sons of (2), remainder to the right heirs of William.

Proviso: if William pre-deceases Matilda, she must live all her life without "marriage, fornication or adultery"; otherwise the feoffment shall be

void and the property shall remain after William's death to his sons.

Warranty clause.

Dated at: Carrington.

Endorsed: i) "Carta... tall' heredibus masculis tempore R 2"; ii) "Tall' hered' masc' ".

Quitclaim (24 Jun 1422 )
Reference GB 133 EGR1/2/1/9
GB 133 Former reference: bundle E2.
Physical Description Indenture.
Language of Material Language: Latin.
Scope and Content
Parties: 1) Henry del More chaplain, John del Lond chaplain, Nicholas Brydde chaplain, and John le Wrught chaplain

2) John de Caryngton, and Isabel his wife

Property: the manor of Carrington, and all those messuages, lands and tenements in Ashton [upon Mersey] and Partington that (1) lately held [?as

feoffees to use] by the gift and feoffment of Sir George de Caryngton and Elizabeth his wife.

Dated at: Carrington.

Endorsed: "Relaxacio de Partington' etc. Henrici More".

=====================================

Notes on Ormerod:

Note re: Ormerod: ...the later edition with Helsby's annotations is much better. Second, when using Ormerod, you should look VERY carefully at the

evidence he cites, to see if it does in fact support the claimed relationship, as the tables themselves can be misleading. Watch out for the letters

"qy" ("query"), which indicate that the supplied data is in doubt. When possible (and particularly if there is any reason to be dubious), check the

evidence he cites to see if it actually says what he claims it does (although this can often involve ordering copies of items from the P.R.O.).

There is one Inquisition post mortem (of a brother of one of my ancestors) for which I ordered a copy from the P.R.O., and the relationship between

the individual and his heir (granduncle and grandniece) was different from the relationship stated by Ormerod
(uncle and niece) from the same document, so even when Ormerod quotes the contents of a document, he does not always do so correctly.

Stewart Baldwin--https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/nGKx...

======================================

The Visitation of Cheshire in the Year 1580, Volume 18, by Robert Glover, William Fellows, Thomas Benolt, Sir Thomas Chaloner

Skips a generation before the William who was blinded at Sluys (shows his parents John C. and Cecily Hyde), and skips siblings, but appears to show the

same line to George, see p. 60.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Q_wUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA60&lpg=...

0R0jGksYa0pxFsVh2cMj_-8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiImNm3tsTRAhXEwiYKHTWgA-YQ6AEIODAE#v=onepage&q=visitation%20of%20cheshire%20carington&f=false

======================================

After the suppression of Wat Tyler's rebellion the crime of
wife stealing must have been very prevalent in Lancashire ; for
in a proclamation which John of Gaunt thought it necessary to
issue, he gave express command to the sheriff of the county to
deal severely with all such malefactors and stealers of the wives
and daughters as well of the nobles as others as he might find ;
and he added that this crime was more common in Lancashire
than elsewhere, and that the ladies so stolen were wont to marry
their ravishers. (Br. Hibbert Ware's Manchester, p. 1 17.) But the
epidemic appears soon to have reached the gentry of Cheshire
also, for Thomas son of sir Ralph de Vernon in 11 Richard H,
(1387) was indicted, tried and found guilty of having with others
his followers forcibly entered the house of Margaret de Caryng-
ton the widow of sir Thomas de Caryngton, of a great Cheshire
family at Weaver, and having there violated her and carried her
away. (Chesh, Records)

Full text of "Chetham miscellanies" - Internet Archive https://archive.org/stream/chethammiscellan86chet/chethammiscellan8...

http://scans.library.utoronto.ca/pdf/3/8/remainshistorica86chetuoft...

also here: Full text of "County families of Lancashire and Cheshire"

https://archive.org/stream/countyfamiliesof00crosuoft/countyfamilie...

========================================

...John, son of William de Coton, who, according to the Cheshire Plea Rolls, acquired lands in Wimboldesley, in the 3rd Edward Ill., 1329, which

lands seem to be those mentioned in the later Inquisitions post mor/em of the Cottons of this township. In the 6th Richard H. [1382-3], Robert de

Cotton, of Cotton (who was probably son or grandson of the last-mentioned John), granted to Hugh de Hulme,e a messuage in Middlcwich,
and to this deed a seal bearing the Cotton arms with the superscription, "Sigillum Roberti de Coton," was attached.f According to Dr. Williamson, in

this year, "Robert Cotton, of Cotton, who bound himself to serve under Sir Thomas de Carington with a horseman and three archers in the crusade made

by the bishop of Norwich, settled on Robert Grosvenor and Thomas Davenport, of Betchton, all his lands, etc., with their appurtenances in Cotton and

Hulme, etc."

The History of the Ancient Parish of Sandbach, co. Chester (1890)

http://www.sandbach-star.org.uk/sites/sandbach-star.org.uk/files/do...

========================================

1387, July 26
Thomas son of Ralph de Vernon, Kt., warrant by the King, at the request of the said Ralph, for a pardon to, for an assault at Weever, upon Margaret

who was the wife of Thomas de Carrington, Kt. [10 & 11 Ric. 2. m. 4 (8).]

Report from the Deputy Keeper of the Public Records, 13th February 1875, presented to both Houses of Parliament
Report...1840-1908, Volume 36, page 496

https://books.google.com/books?id=fTlKAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA496&lpg...

%22+Cheshire&source=bl&ots=JXU8Cn5L7t&sig=pqiVKgyYpHDWf0O3kzChnJ8v4dA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjKwo_sx8TRAhWCKiYKHTI6CXcQ6AEIHzAA#v=onepage&q=%22Thomas

%20de%20carrington%22%20Cheshire&f=false

=========================================

From: Dcrdcr4<dcrdcr4@aol.com >
Subject: Ros-Carrington connection
Date: 7 Feb 1999 11:30:01 GMT
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1999-02/...

In a reply to my posting on the Roos (or Ros) family of Gedney, co. Lincoln, Brent Miller reported that he shows a Margaret Ros, wife of Sir Thomas

Carrington (d. ca. 1380-83), who was the daughter of Robet de Ros, of Gedney, and that that Robert de Ros was in turn the grandson of an earlier

Robert de Ros, of Gedney, by his wife, Gremburga Constable, daughter of Robert Constable and his wife, Katherine de Mauley. The information

reportedly comes from the unreliable Smith-Carrington book.

I have checked my files and it does not appear that most of the above information is sound. First off, Margaret, wife of Sir Thomas Carrington, can

not possibly be the daughter of Robert de Roos of Gedney. The reason for that is simple. His IPM shows that he died in 1381, without issue.

As for Robert de Roos's grandparents, I find that they were Robert de Roos and his wife, Ernebruga (not Gremburga). I seriously doubt that Erneburga

was the daughter of Robert Constable of Flamborough, Yorkshire. If anything, she was the daughter of Simon Constable, of Halsham, Yorkshire, who

conveyed his one-third interest in Gedney, co. Lincoln as one of the d'Oyry co-heirs to Robert and Erneburga, probably as Erneburga's maritagium. My

sources are The Genealogist, N.S., 9:7 and 10:90, which sets forth information gleaned from the Plea Rolls.

If anyone has any further information on the Roos family of Gedney or their potential link to the Constable and d'Oyry families, please contact me.
Thanks!

All for now. Sincerely, Douglas Richardson

===================================

Thomas de Carington of Chestershire killed Hugh del Holt at Heton Noreis, Sat. aft. St. Martin, 15th year [14 Nov. 1321]

South Lancashire in the reign of Edward II, p. 30

https://books.google.com/books?id=BdBRAQAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA30&amp;lpg=...

%22&source=bl&ots=CxY_RXn8cz&sig=EZZ_KOnhxbWtreEH1QHsm1Pj1HI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiGqLuKxsTRAhWMOyYKHe0eDcEQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22Thomas%20de

%20carington%20of%20Chestershire%20killed%20Hugh%22&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=FwcNAQAAIAAJ&amp;pg=PA30&amp;lpg=...

%22+margaret&source=bl&ots=SKRgtF3bsT&sig=zn5hDTDi76d7SqHeQL3RRyfOeUI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRxv_OxMTRAhUB7yYKHX3CAz4Q6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=%22Thomas

%20de%20carington%22%20margaret&f=false

===================================

The Household and Military Retinue of Edward the Black Prince https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/98905.pdf
http://eprints.nottingham.ac.uk/10912/1/298952-VOL1.pdf

Prior to the...Reims campaign, a number of Cheshire knights were paid out of funds assigned to the prince's wardrobe and chamber, provided that

sufficient resources remained for the building programme at Kennington. 109

109 Letters of protection and half their wages of war were given to: Ralph Mobberley, L 1113 s. 4d.; John Daniers, LI I l3s, 4d., William Carrington,

10 marks; Hamo Mascy, 100s.; John Danyers, 100s. (the remainder of his fees were to be taken out of a debt to the prince to the value of LI I 13s.

4d. ); Thomas Stathum, 100s.; Robert le Bruyn, 66s. 8d.; Robert Legh, 66s. 8d., ihid., iii, 200.

The Reims campaign also drew heavily on Cheshire for its manpower and again involved William Carrington and John Daniers.

In August [1359], eight knights and 17 esquires were retained for a year's service. [95] The leaders of the Cheshire force were Robert Legh, the son

(leader of Macclesfield hundred), John Fitton, Ralph Mobberley, William Carington and John, son of Thomas Danyers. [96]
[95] BPA W, 331,349-50; Rymer, HI, i, 415; Barber, Edward, 158.
[96] Hewitt, Cheshire Under the Three Edwards, 102

Existing troops were placed on a war footing and wages were paid. The amounts paid to the prince's bachelors was consistent...William Carington and

three esquires, 20 pounds

1363 Household, BL Cotton Julius C IV ff. 288-91.
...William Carrington +2 esquires

Bachelors with annuities involved in multiple campaigns
...Carington, William (28 July 1364)

1369 Northampton Muster Roll, E101/29/24
...William Carington + 10 men-at-arms & 40 archers

==================================

The Record Society of Lancashire and Cheshire Vol 140: Extent of the Lordship of Longdendale 1360. Edited by John Harrop with Paul Booth and Sylvia

Harrop.

Volume 140 is a transcription of a complex series of drafts of information collected before and after 1360, which formed the basis of an official

document, which has not survived. The Extent attempts to assess the value of these lands so that they can be leased to Sir William Carrington, one of

the Black Prince’s retainers to produce an income of £40 per year for the Earl. On 28 January 1360, a jury of twelve principal tenants was sworn in

and evidence taken in the form of oath statements on who held each property in the Lordship of Longdendale.

http://www.chesterarchaeolsoc.org.uk/che_antiq07_spring.pdf

==================================

TONY BOSTOCK’S LOCAL HISTORY NOTES: WEAVER
Weaver is one of those places you may never have heard of. Mention the name and you immediately think of the river or of Weaverham, near Northwich.

But a few miles south of Winsford on the west bank of the river there is a township that bears the same name....

p. 7
On 8 April 1367 by an indenture Richard de Weaver and his wife Margaret granted to Sir Robert Fouleshurst the marriage of their son Thomas to

Annabel, his daughter, along with lands in Macclesfield Hundred. Sir Robert agreed to pay 100 marks of silver to the exchequer at Chester for the

privilege. Sir Robert was required to keep Thomas and Annabel in clothing and food for the next eleven years until Thomas became of full age. There

was an agreement that Sir Robert was to pay the fine if in England and not overseas otherwise Richard would pay.47 It seems that this Thomas may have

died young and that the marriage never took place and that subsequently another son was born and given the same name, for on 29 August 1378 the

wardship and marriage of Thomas son of Richard Weaver was granted by the earl to Sir William Carrington.48
p. 8
The year of Richard‟s death is not known as the inquisition post mortem is undated. It states that Richard held Weaver and a moiety of the

forestership of Mondrem and of 2s rent from property in Rushton and that Thomas, his heir, was aged three years when his father died. As Sir William

Carrington was granted the wardship of Thomas Weaver from August 1378 this suggests that Richard was dead by then. Thomas' proof of age was held at

Nantwich in February 1392 and that found that he had been twenty-one years old in mid-January and had been baptized at Over church in 1371 which

suggests his father died in 1374. A writ was issued by the king on 31 May 1392 to have enquiries made into what lands Thomas‟ father had held when he

died, and on 20 July the same year Thomas had a writ allowing him to also inherit his mother‟s family‟s estate. Her lands consisted of property in

Woodlegh (Bredbury) worth 100s a year, which the guardian had leased to a William Hulme. An inquisition dated 17 September 1399 recorded that Isabel

Weaver held in dower five messuages, 200 acres of land twenty acres of meadow and two acres of wood in Woodlegh and that her late husband Thomas had

held it jointly with Margaret widow of Hugh Weaver, presumably Thomas' brother.

http://www.tonybostock.com/weaver.pdf

==================================

The Leicester-Warren Manuscripts include a receipt by Sir Thomas Danyers, Sir John Mascy and Sir Thomas Carrington, all veterans of the earl of

Buckingham's expedition, for an advance made by Calveley on their wages for the bishop of Norwich's crusade of 1383.

http://www.hslc.org.uk/documents/PDFS/1978.pdf

==================================

In the rental of Dunham-Massy, 3 Hen. IV, 1402, we read thus : Georgius Carington c chivaler tenet manerium suum de Carington, et medietatem villa:

de Ashton, et tertiam partem villa: de Partington, faciendo liberum servitium pro duabus partibus feodi militis; ut per chartam antecessoribus dictii

Georgii per Hamonem Massy militem factam; et reddendo per annum de Stuthe, alias dictum sheriff-tooth, - 7den.

p. 542, The History of the County Palatine and City of Chester: Comp. from ..., Volume 1, by George Ormerod

https://books.google.com/books?id=DYY1AQAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA543&amp;lpg...

ECUxK4bgC39rzsmDuBD94QAnQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjamsrtl7vRAhUGOiYKHXZvC5MQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22george%20carrington%22%20chester&f=false

==================================

16 July 1416, Henry V, George Carrington, knight, attempts to collect some taxes in Cheshire [likely the same George who was Lord of Carington Manor]

Henry V: New Interpretations - Page 178 - Google Books Result https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1903153468 Gwilym Dodd - 2013 - ‎History

https://books.google.com/books?id=w_X5UBOTaI0C&amp;pg=PA178&amp;lpg...

mfD_nDSea6PaRivWiyY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiRl9HwmbvRAhXJ2yYKHbDhCxwQ6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=%22george%20carrington%22%20bucklow%20hundred&f=false

===================================

Here is one record showing a John Carington who was of adult age in 1419.

George Carington's son John--was he old enough in 1419? [Also John Carington als. Smith alleged to have changed his name by now.]

Sir John Carington, of Carington

HISTORIC SITES

OF

Lancashire and Cheshire.

A WAYFARER'S NOTES IN THE PALATINE COUNTIES,
HISTORICAL, LEGENDARY, GENEALOGICAL,
AND DESCRIPTIVE.

BY

JAMES CROSTON, F.S.A....1883.

Sir Peter Leycester...says that--

Great contention fell between Sir Peter Dutton and Sir William
Athurton, of Athurton, in Lancashire, insomuch that they made inroads
and invasions one upon the other; and the said Sir Piers Dutton
and his adherents, to wit, Sir Rafe Bostock of Bostock, Richard
Warburton of Budworth, Thomas Warburton of Halton, John Done of
Utkinton, junior, John Manley of Manley, Hugh Dutton of Halton,
the elder, William Leycester, of Nether-Tabley, Sir Peter Legh of
Clifton,[55] and John Carington of Carington, were all sued by Sir
William Athurton, for taking away forty of his oxen and forty cows,
out of his closes at Athurton, and for beating of his servants. But
the variance was composed between them by the award of John Duke of
Bedford, Earl of Richmond and Kendal, constable of England, and regent
of the kingdom in the absence of Henry the Fifth, dated 9 Aprilis 7
Hen. V. 1419, restitution being awarded on both sides: the horses and
saddles taken by Sir William to be restored to Sir Piers Dutton, and
the cattel taken by Sir Piers to be restored to the said Sir William.

http://doctrinepublishing.com/showbook.php?file=67391-0000.txt

I'll be sorting through this tonight.

William Dugdale (d. 1686) is going to be the earliest author I know of to have addressed the Carrington/Smith topic. He published mid to late 17th century.

https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/203049?availability=Family%...

I also see a stark absence of Lionel M. Angus-Butterworth's name. Yes, he connects the Smiths of Nottingham to John Smith of Rivenhall, so of course his work should be scrutinized. However, he provides some very interesting citations of source material.

https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/398107?availability=Family%...

I wish to also make sure that we're aware that there are Carringtons who aren't related to each other. See my link to the "Carrington yDNA Project" in a previous post.

I would really like to find:
* a will of John Smyth of Rivenhall
* a will of John Carrington of Cheshire
* source information for John Carrington of Cheshire who is said to have lived in "monastic guest houses" off of his spoils from fighting in Italy.

I am also looking for an analysis of the estate records of John Smyth of Rivenhall or his children. I believe it was argued that looking at the lands he and/or his children inherited may shed light onto who their immediate family members were.

The most compelling bit of info for me is that we have a record that describes a John Carrington of Chester as a man who fought abroad for money. This fits well with the narrative set forth in the hand written document that was (preposterously, in my opinion) claimed to be fraudulent, and was suggested to have been written by John Smyth of Rivenhall, a son of Thomas Carrington and Margaret Roos.

Now, there could have been two (or more) John Carringtons. Do we have any evidence for this? Can the source records differentiate two (or more) individuals?

I would also like to, for brevity's sake, request that citations not be wantonly copy/pasted without an analysis. If you provide information, please explain how it is relevant.

And remember, we need to focus. Supplying information on the suggested ancestors of Thomas Carrington who married Mrs. Roos (and those Carringtons before) will not help dis/prove the care for/against John Smyth actually being John Carrington.

If we do have to digress, please make sure you explain how the individuals fit into the narrative.

Thanks for all your work on this. Seriously.

Chris

Are we exploring the possibility that the the John Carrington source info is going to be in a foreign language, likely Latin or French, and possibly in French archives or French language sites?

Chris

Amy did a heroic work of referencing the available primary sources. The Geni tree should be consistent with these notes, please advise if not.

The analysis Amy references (the soc.gen.med discussions) are contemporary medievalist peer reviewers. Andy Lancaster, whose pages we have referenced several times, is part of that group. I've read his posts and his work and consider his scholarship more than sound.

Dugdale is not the earliest sources for the Carrington's, there are primary records quoted in Ormerod, who is considered the authority for Cheshire.

We need to find external evidence to support the existence of John Carrington, armiger, of Cheshire, brother of George, grandson of William blinded at Sluys.

It may well be there was an undocumented John Carrington who went mercenary in Italy. If he had been in Gen Nevill's household there would have been an expenditure for his care. There should also be expenditures for the ransom money collected in Italy; for his soldiering; and independent corroboration of the names mentioned in the narrative. So far there is nothing to suggest "any" of the other names in that narrative existed.

The reason for getting into the pedigree is that this points out there are earlier parts of the pedigree disproved by modern genealogy, so if the goal is a chain of links from John Smith of Rivenhall to William Carrington to Michael the standard bearer on back, you'll need to verify each of those links; or accept that there are those who have UN verified them.

I posted upthread an Italian database of mercenaries in medieval Italy. Names look much the same even if the database is another language, as long as its in the same alphabet. And google translate works (a bit).

Note that the Ros of Gedney connection to the Carringtons seems incorrect. Amy had quoted:

"First off, Margaret, wife of Sir Thomas Carrington, cannot possibly be the daughter of Robert de Roos of Gedney. The reason for that is simple. His IPM shows that he died in 1381, without issue."

Here is a link to Dugdale's work, both volumes. Nice.

[WorldCat]
http://www.worldcat.org/title/antiquities-of-warwickshire-illustrat...

[Direct link - may not work without visiting WorldCat first]
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/api/volumes/oclc/1524560.html

Erica, I thought it was Margaret de Roos was of the Roos of Hedham (or something like that)?

I will agree that the works of Mr. Robert Smith-Carington, the original possessor of the archives of Dr. Walter Copinger, should not be used a cannon for the Carrington lineages.

I feel hashing out the Carrington pedigrees will be an effort in and of itself, separate from cleaning up the mess that Mr. Robert Smith-Carington, Dr. Walter Copinger, and John Horace Round have created.

Chris

Clarification:

Sir Thomas Carrington and Sir George Carrington are brothers, sons of William who was blinded at Sluys.

John Carrington als. Smith is supposed to be the son of Sir Thomas and nephew of Sir George.

Chris:

To put together a proper timeline for Sir Thomas Carrington, alleged father of John Carrington alias Smith, we must collect information on his parents, his wife, and any siblings (at minimum).

To truly do the thing right, we should go further than that. Sir Thomas may be mentioned in legal documents of his more extended family as well.

Looking at Sir William and the Roos family is not a "digression."

I will agree that the Roos famliy is not a digression. One thing I found myself looking for...

Sir George Booth of Dunham-Massy married Jane Carrington, the suggested sole heir to [a] John Carrington, Esq. of Carrington. George and Jane did not have any children. After she died, George engaged in a lawsuit to take possession of Jane's holdings. A grandson of George Booth, another George Booth (Lord Delamere) possesses the township of Carington (in 1666).

I would like to see the legal records for this transaction as they surely describe who John Carrington was.

Here's a stepping stone perhaps to finding these Booth/Carrington records.

https://books.google.com/books?id=skdBAQAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PA512&amp;dq=...

A footnote regarding George and Jane: "Their marriage settlement contained this remarkable clause, that 'if the said Jane should after marriage be detected of incontinency, the estate should remain to the family of Booth.' "

This is cited from a work titled "Historical Antiquities" p. 229, likely authored by Sir Peter Leycester. Perhaps there is more there?

Incontinency in this context means:
"The state of incontinency is considered as infirmity, wherein the person feels the sharpest stings of conscience: that of intemperance, as malice, wherein the remorse is not so lively. - In that of obduracy there is none. See HABIT, VIRTUE, &c".

https://books.google.com/books?id=nXEiAQAAMAAJ&amp;pg=PP798&amp;lpg...

The only thing I can find with the Italian database is that it listed only officers and other heads of the military? Yes? It didn't sound like John Carrington of Cheshire in 1401 was anything other than a hired sword.

Ok, my mistake... The Sir John Carrington whose daughter married Mr. Booth was a much more recent individual, born circa 1517.

Disregard.

I would be very surprised if the records from the George Booth lawsuit prove to be any help. Jane Carrington Booth is several generations beyond the Carringtons we are interested in, and our John would be her first cousin several times removed.

She is the fourth great-granddaughter of William blinded at Sluys.

Sir William m. Matilda (grandfather of our John)

Sir George, 3rd son, m. Elizabeth (uncle of our John)

William, gent., fourth son, m. unknown wife

Andrew, Esq., second son, m. Emma, widow Holynworthe

John, Esq. m. Margaret Warburton

John, Esq. m. (2) Ellen Booth

John, Esq. m. Ellen Holford

Jane, lady of Carrington, sole dau. & heir, (1562-1590) m. George Booth (1566-1652), no children.

Jane is at the bottom of the Carington of Carington chart in Ormerod's History of Cheshire:

https://books.google.com/books?id=DYY1AQAAMAAJ&amp;lpg=PA543&amp;ot...

Thanks for the details Amy. Yes, the John Carrington alias Smith of Rivenhall would not have been this same Sir John Carrington who was father to Jane Carrington Booth. My mistake.

Too many Williams and Johns to keep straight easily.

I once had to "prune" a large branch of my tree because I had confused one William Bryan with his 3rd cousin of the same age, also named William Bryan.

(Makes me grateful for ancestors with unusual given names, such as Yelverton, Beheathland, Zebulon, and Lake Erie.)

If we could figure out the identity of John Carington of Carington, sued by Sir William Athurton in 1419 (or perhaps the case was settled in 1419)...he seems to be the most likely candidate named in these records.

(search the text for "Carington")

http://doctrinepublishing.com/showbook.php?file=67391-0000.txt

Please see my blog for my latest effort at organizing my criticisms of Round.

https://smithgenealogy.wordpress.com/

Thanks,

Chris

Amy, you've been digging. Wow.

Chris, good blog. It is a lot of material to cover, and getting the points organized is very helpful.

I wish I knew more about English mercenaries in the Italian wars. "Someone" knew.

I say we all see how much we can find on Amy's lead regarding Sir William Athurton. Yes?

By the way, you guys are fun :) Just sayin'.

Annals of the Lords of Warrington for the first five centuries after the conquest. (2017). Google Books. Retrieved 19 January 2017, from https://books.google.com/books?id=HLdSAAAAcAAJ&amp;pg=PA260&amp;lpg...

page 263

But in the king's retinue there were others who must have heard his words without regarding them. William Atherton of Atherton who indentured to go with him to France as a simple squire and won his spurs at Agincourt, and sir Peter Legh who was also in the battle and there made a banneret, were a few years afterwards engaged in two lawless outrages which does not weaken the presumption that lady Boteler's wronger might have been like them also at Agincourt as one of her father-in-law's men-at-arms. Sir Peter Leycester tells the story thus : “Great contention fell between sir Peter Dutton and sir William Atherton of Lancashire, insomuch that they made inroads and invasions upon one another, and the said sir Peter and his adherents sir Ralph Bostock of Bostock, Richard Warburton of Budworth, Thomas Warburton of Halton, John Done of Utkinton junior, John Manley of Manley, Hugh Dutton of Hatton the elder, William Leycester of Nether Tabley, sir Peter Legh of Clifton and John Carington of Carington, were all sued by sir William Atherton for taking away forty of his oxen and forty cows out of his closes at Atherton, and for beating his servants; but this variance was composed between them by the award of John duke of Bedford earl of Richmond and Kendal, constable of England and regent of the kingdom in the absence of Henry V. (dated 9th April 7 Henry V. 1419), restitution being awarded on both sides ;' the horses and saddles taken by sir William Atherton to be restored to sir Peter Dutton, and the cattle taken by sir Piers to be restored to the said sir William.” (Sir Peter Leycester’s liher C. p. 146n.)

-----

(I got a citation maker in Chrome & keep changing my mind which format I like - APA, Chicago, MPA ... )

(BTW this is the same as Amy's)

continuing with a little editorial comment:

Our ancestors, it is to be feared, were of a quarrelsome disposition,
and, much as we may boast of "the good old times," it must be confessed
that they lose much of their charm when from our modern standpoint we
begin to examine closely the lives and habits of those who figured
in them. There is no reason to suppose that Sir Peter Legh was more
disorderly than his neighbours, similar outrages to those committed on
Sir William Atherton's lands being then of common occurrence.

So this establishes that in or about 1419 there was a John Carrington of Carington in Cheshire, in the "party of" sir Peter Dutton.

Obviously this is not the same person as John Carrington als Smith of Rivenhall d 1446. I thought the story was he was in Rivenhall from 1404 to his death.

I would suppose there could have been more than one John Carrington of Carrington at the time...

Here's a Geni profile that mentions a "John Carrington" and "Robert Ardern" as having fled to Paris in 1400. Any leads on this?

https://www.geni.com/projects/The-Chesire-Archers-The-King-s-Secret...