God Almighty . - God Almighty is NOT your 85th Great Grandfather

Started by Private User on Sunday, December 25, 2016
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Cross-posted. I understand the point. I'm not at all arguing that Odin's original name was Sigge. I don't personally believe he was originally a human. Instead, my point is that Mallet might have preserved a genuine tradition of some sort, particularly since he "comes close" to being (almost) right. It doesn't need to have been an outright fabrication.

Harald, looks like we're both a bit off here. If I knew my Swedish history better I could have saved myself 15 minutes of Googling ;)

The idea that Odin's name was Sigge seems to come from the legend that he founded Sigtuna and named it after himself.

Added to the Odin page - Snorre doesn't claim that he named it after himself; on the contrary, the way it was written, it's as if Snorre doesn't want to say what Odin called it: "Odin took lodging near Mälaren, where it's now named old Sigtuna". It's not an unreasonable leap of logic for Mallet to make, but I don't think it holds up to scrutiny.

Sigge should be an abbreviation of either Sigurd, (Victory+fate, "destiny"), or Sigvard, (Victory+guard, "watchman" ), and so may have been given to him during his life or after his death, not necessary a given name.

Kiya-Tasherit . disconnected from Ram .

Thanks to a "tip" from an "informant."

Need the disconnect points, identified by Geni profile ID, if I'm to be of help, I can't figure it out myself.

Thanks, and keep the error correction coming.

Harald, you're right of course, but I don't see that it matters. There are two different questions here. First, is Odin as Sigge an authentic, pre-Christian tradition? Of course not. We already know that.

Second, where did anyone ever get the idea? That's the really interesting question.

Over and over, in 18th and 19th century sources I'm seeing variations on the statement "Odin founded Sigtuna and named it after himself." In fact, Sigtuna has an entirely different etymology, so this statement ins't a clue to the truth. It's a clue to the belief at that time.

We already know Scandinavian historians did not "re-discover" Icelandic literature until relatively late in the game. Say, the late 18th or early 19th centuries. So, the source for Sigge is most probably outside the sagas and not nearly so old.

We also know that modern experts do not believe there was ever a uniform system across the north -- that the names and relationships of the gods varied across different regions. The Prose Edda (13th century) says, "Odin's third son was called Sigi; his son Rerir; this pair ruled over what is now called France, and the family known as Völsungar came from there." So that's another piece of the puzzle.

I thought the most likely source for Odin = Sigge would be Johannes Magnus (Archbishop of Uppsala), Historia de omnibus Gothorum Sveonumque regibus (1554). But, no. He has two Sigges in his king list and one Odin. That might be worth looking into, but it's not an obvious source.

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_de_omnibus_Gothorum_Sveonumq...

Instead, I find this statement at Swedish Wikipedia: "I den likaledes euhemeristiska historiesynen på 1600-talet framfördes av Olof Verelius och Johan Peringskiöld[17] åsikten att Oden hade en historisk förebild som de gav namnet Sigge Fridulfsson."

In other words, the idea of Odin as Sigge goes back to Olof Verelius and Johan Peringskiöld[ in the 17th century.

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oden

Yes, there is much invention coming out of Sweden - for amusement value, the theories of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaus_Rudbeck have much to recommend themselves :-)

My reason for pursuing these legends' sources (apart from sheer entertainment) is that if we know where they originated, we can handle people who insist they are "the truth" much more easily.

I feel another Wiki page coming :-)

Last night I was running into Rudbeck all over. At frequencies that suggest he was actually the original proposer of Odin = Sigge. However, I haven't been able to spiral in. Although, I'm still think that the source might also be Johannes Magnus, if one were to read the detail and not just a king list.

Well, he's on Geni, according to what I can summarize from the bio, he was a polymath, (a person of wide-ranging knowledge or learning).

Olof Rudbeck
https://sok.riksarkivet.se/Sbl/Presentation.aspx?id=6987

ADD PHOTO
Ya'rub bin Yashjub
Gender: Male
Birth: estimated between 1694BCE and 1634BCE
Immediate Family:
Son of Yashjub bin Nebaioth
Father of Nahur bin Ya'rub
Added by: Adam AS on December 24, 2015
Managed by: Rd. A. Awal Bachtiar

Nahur bin Ya'rub
Gender: Male
Birth: estimated before 131
Immediate Family:
Son of Ya'rub bin Yashjub
Father of Mugawwam bin Nahur
Added by: Adam on December 25, 2015
Managed by: Rd. A. Awal Bachtiar

The next most recent is same manager & the estimated date is again circa - 100

'Udadh bin Nahur

Where are the estimated dates calculating from?

Ya'rub bin Yashjub My 3rd cousin 108 times removed? Strange, right?

Imaam 'Udd bin 'Udadh is my 7th cousin 104 times removed's father (and he lived to be 157 years old?)

I need someone else to check this, but I think we're looking at an 8th century fabrication.

From http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mohammad/ishmael.htm

When we return to the genealogy fabricated by Ibn Ishak, on which other Muslim writers built in more recent times, we notice his Arabization of the genealogy. As I stated previously, he listed the son of Nabaioth, first-born of Ishmael, as Yashjub يشجب, his son is Yarob يعرب.  Yarob is, in itself, a word derived from the word Arab. Ibn Ishak did this in order to make Ishmael appear to be an Arab. Though we know that the word “Arab” was not known before the 10th century B.C., this style for names like Yarob and Yashjub is characteristic of the 8th century A.D., in which Ibn Ishak lived.  A common characteristic to all these genealogies is that they claim Mohammed was descended from Ishmael, and they all give a limited number of ancestors between Mohammed and Ishmael.

There are 2,670 years between Ishmael and Mohammed; a large span of time which cannot be covered with only 40 generations.

------

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebaioth

Sons of Nebaioth, the first born of Ishmael:
Mend
Send
Mayon

No Yashjub bin Nebaioth

Nebaioth .

-----

If I understand this correctly, I will disconnect "Yashrub". Please advise.

If that page is to be trusted, it seems that Mohammed himself stated where the line should be cut:

"Mohammed genealogized himself regarding his ancestors until he reached al-Nather bin Kinaneh, then he said, “anyone who claimed otherwise or added further ancestors, has lied.”"

Unlinking Yashjub bin Yarab, Ruler of Sheba, "Father of Pure Arabs" from Nebialoth son of Ishmael and putting a quote & link to the ishmael.htm page in his "about me" seems like a Right Thing to do. Making sure the name of Ibn Ishak is prominently mentioned makes it easier to find the info again.

I heard about my 42nd Great Grandmother Flavia Juliana through the proverbial grapevine.

Perhaps this profile is a questionable connection between the Arab and Roman worlds? Of course I defer to those more knowledgeable than myself . . .

From "IS MOHAMMED A DESCENDENT OF ISHMAEL?" By Dr. Rafat Amari

Note from Ben- (One should keep in mind that Rafat is a Christian (who comes from an Arab Orthodox background) whose life's work seems to be to evangelize Muslims. As such his motivations might inform his opinions.)

"Mohammed's family was a Sabaean Yemeni family, while the Ishmaelites, who lived in the deserts of the Fertile Crescent, became extinct many centuries before Mohammed's family left Yemen."

"The genealogy fabricated by Ibn-Ishak contradicts the sayings of Mohammed, who expressed his ignorance about his ancestors prior to his 17th ancestor."

"All the genealogies that appeared at the time of Mohammed were considered by Mohammed and his close followers to be false."

"Enormous historical mistakes exist in the Quran, and the genealogies created after the rise of Islam, to support the Quran. Some examples are the genealogies regarding Thamud and Nimrod."

"No one has the right to claim he descended from a specific man who lived 2,000 years before him, unless he has written documents which testify to his claim. In Mohammed’s case, those documents simply do not exist. We have no proof that the ancestors of Mohammed were the descendants of Ishmael."

"There are 2,670 years between Ishmael and Mohammed; a large span of time which cannot be covered with only 40 generations."

My more than 300-year-old second cousin 110 times removed Nimrod King of Assyrie in Babylon is one of the ways "they" bridged the gap.

Ishmael . is 137 years old and is my 110th Great Uncle?

Disconnect done of Yashjub from Nebioth, with notes & also a link to Ibn Ishaq's book.

You all might want to think about consolidating Ya'rub bin Yashjub with Yashjub bin Yarab, Ruler of Sheba, "Father of Pure Arabs"

One of the disputes is "which" son of Ishmael (see family tree above).

Relief! Now God Almighty . is my 120th great grandfather.

"The rest is commentary."

Erica Howton, nice work! Now he is my 117th :)

Mash . Aram by Bechtiar

‘Aram Aram by Kassian

Aram . Aram by Shmuel?

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