Help with old Swedish

Knut Posse

Nils Jönsson Sluk till Grelsby

Nils Pedersson Wijnman

Interesting that you found that document and the profile of Nils Winjman. I hope someone can translate it, I cannot.
The line from Nils Winjman to farmers in Korpo is made by an old generation genealogist who used quite unusual methods to prove ancestry. It may not be reliable.

Here's one fast translation, I hopes it good enough.

Jag Nils Jensson, väpnare i Gregersby, häradshövding i Åland på denna tid, gör veterligt med detta mitt närvarande öppna brev, att på den tid jag höll ting i Saltviks socken i Kuggböle under ärlig och välborne man Knut Posses närvaro, hövitsman på Kastellholmen, året 1494 vid fastelagens tisdag, kom inför rätta på tinget beskedliga männen Björn Månsson, Johan Månsson, från Heluitis torp i Lemlands socken, med edsvurna vittnen, som här efterkallade står: Berger Olsson, Oluf Nilsson i Hammarlands socken, Måns Bruse, Nicklas Stensson i Eckerö, Bengt Månsson Ibm, Peder Nilsson i Kuggböle som nu är länsman vid denna tid, vittnade och eftersvor på boken vittnesed, att ärlige mannen Nils Pedersson, som borgmästare var i Stockholm, Gud vare hans själ nådig, och beskedlige mannen Olof Mickelsson, ny borgmästare på samma ställe, var släkt på båda sidor till fjärde man, vilket styrkes av de sex edsvurna männen, och dessa kallade tolv, som då i nämnden satt, samtyckte och svor på att detta överensstämde med sanningen, vilka vore Engelbrekt Långben (Plats), Mattis Månsson på samma ställe, Måns Jepsson I Berthaby, Michel Helgasson i Tengsöda, Anders Larsson ibm, Erik Nilsson i Sylöda, Mattis Nilsson ibm, Nicklas skomakare, ibm, Olof Månsson I Haraldsby, och Jeppe i Hjortö. Till yttermera visshet och vittnesbörd så ber jag välborne mannen Knut Posse att han trycker sitt sigill nedanför detta brevet mitt, som är givet och skrivet år och dag som föreskrivet står, och hädanefter önskar vi ytterligare efterfråga och rannsaka nu efter xiiij dag uti socknarna där de barnfödda är, fram tills vi härefter håller ting.

Many thanks, Ulf!

Many thanks from me, too.

But I don´t realize what is the real case at this document ? It looks quite separate.

Här är någontig till släktforskaren:

Väpnaren Nils Jönsson (Sluk), häradshövding på Åland, avger intyg att framlidne borgmästaren i Stockholm Nils Pedersson och borgaren därstädes Oleff Michelsson var släkt på båda sidor till fjärde man.

Men vem var fjärde man och vilka båda sidor?

> Men vem var fjärde man och vilka båda sidor?

That;s also my question. I thought I might be able to figure out who he was if I had the whole text in modern language. But I can't.

If I read correctly, Peder Nilsson testifies that Nils Pedersson, the former mayor of Stockholm, and Olof Mickelsson, the current mayor, were relatives "on both sides" of a fourth man.
till fjärde man
Does "on both sides" mean one on one side and one on the other side? Or both related to the fourth man through both of his parents?

I wonder if the compiler was also uncertain. The captions on most of the documents in this collection name the main parties but this one just says "till fjärde man".

I think this must be part of an estate settlement. I'm looking in the database for more documents but I haven't found anything yet:
http://df.narc.fi/search/

These are not my ancestors. I just found this when I was looking for something else and got interested.

This one could be part of the same case, but I haven't found enough information about these men to be sure:

12.5.1492
Laurens Jönsson i Hellestorp på Åland, Biörn Mansson, Jöns Mansson, Michel i Swartnøø, Margit, Gunner Benctssons hustru, Holmger i Swynøø (Svinö), Jöns Siffridhsson, Oleff Jönsson, Nils Jönsson, Anders Hardh, Niels Andersson och Jap i Vermdøø (Värmdö), alla tolv framlidne borgmästaren herr Nils Perssons bröder, brorsöner, brordöttrar och systersöner erkänner 1492, den 12 maj (lördagen näst före Erici reg. et mart.), inför Stockholms råd sig av herr Nils' testamentarier herr Anders Tørbo, rådman Pelle Persson och Raual Kamp mottagit allt det arv dem tillkom efter bemälde Nils; varjämte de på tillfrågan förklarar på sina och sina efterkommandes vägnar, att de aldrig ville den prebendan förhindra eller förarga, som herr Nils i sin välmakt hade stiftat Gudi till lov och ära för sig och sina föräldrars, vänners samt alla kristnas själar.

http://df.narc.fi/document/4404

And maybe this:

05/15/1492
Nils Jönsson i Grelsby, häradshövding på Åland, dömer, efter skedd syn och ransakan av en av frälsemän och bönder sammansatt nämnd, invid Svinö (i Lemland) belägna Broholm, varpå de av Krokstad gjort anspråk, att höra Svinö till.

Nils Jönsson i Grelsby, häradshöfding på Åland, dömer, efter skedd syn och ransakan af en af frälsemän och bönder sammansatt nämnd, invid Svinö (i Lemland) belägna Broholm, hvarpå de af Krokstad gjort anspråk, att höra Svinö till.
Avskrift i Ålands dombok från år 1707, sid. 269, där det sägs att Svinö bönder framlagt ett gammalt original pergamentsbrev, varunder hängt 2:ne sigill, "som genom tiden och vanrykt redan så förnött och fördärvadt var, att ingen det mera läsa kunde, jämte en kopia av samma brev, även väl i forna tider och med gammal stil på pergament skrivet, som sammaledes redan begynt att bliva oläsligt", varför nedanstående avskrift begärts av rätten.
För alle dhe dannemän thette bref händer förekomma bekännes iag Nils Jonesson i Gregesby, häradzhöfdinge på Ålandh i thenna tijdh, att åhren effter Gudz byrdh MCDXC på det andra åhret war jag tillnämbder att wara på en syyn och åthskillnadh jmellan thenna twå bya Swijnö och Krogstada, som är medh ena landz nemdh frijborne män och bönder xiiii dag effter S. Walbårge dag i ährlig och wälborens mans Knut Posses närwaro, höfuitzman på Ålandh och Kastelholm, medh thesse xii här effter nembnes, frijborne och bönder: Kort Harttigesson i Codebolsta, Ol Olsson i Mattenäs, Anders Olsson i Dahlkarby, Mårthen Erichsson i Torp och bönder Per Olsson i Jumalaby, Nils Månsson i Biörsby, Jep Jönsson i Göleby, Jep Jep[son] i Empttkarby, Jöns Bentsson i Bärström, Biril Olsson i Hammarland, Ol Joansson i Hara[l]sby, Anders Olsson i Ödekarby, om huilket thenne byä trätt hafwa om en holm, som kallas Broholm och ligger nordan sjdan Swij[n]öö broo. Thenne tolf ransakade gammull witne oc (! = att af) åler ingen annars minnes än then holm har legat af åler under Swijnöö; item effter theras edh, tha walde (= ladhe?) thenna för:de xii thenna för:de Broholm under Swijnöö, och the fiske watn, som der under ligger, måge the och (= aff) Swijnöö bruka sig till måtto (= nytto?); item then rågarden, som är nordan för Broholm och löper in på Krokstadh eng, thenn skulle the och Swijnö halla frijan och färdiugan och den grinden till allmänna wäg, som är på rågården; eij skulle the af Swijnö mehr betta medh sitt fää än på samme ägodela medh än the skatta medh thera sak som lagen gifna (= giffuer?). Item hölt ährlige och wälborne man Knut Posse, landzens höfwitzman i ten tydh, ett lansting i Jummala sochn i Ytternäs Gesterby neste tisdagen effter S. Olofz dag på samme åhr som forskriffuidh står; thå giorde thenne xii sin edh och rätt i samme ländztinget, att dhe hafwa ransakat rätt och sant att för:ne Broholm ligger under Swijnöö: Per Siffredsson i Gesterby, Måns Jepsson i Norsunda, Olof Larsson ibidem, Karl Peersson ibidem, Ol Olsson i Ytterby, Olof Månsson i Hara[l]sby, Jöns Nilsson i Böhle, Lass Jönsson i Tossaleby, Peer Bonde i Ödekarby, Lass Månsson i Månstekta, Hindrich Olsson i Bistorp, Jöns Jepsson i Göleby; huarföre dömde iag, Nils Joensson, offta nämbde Broholm under Swijnö till alders ägo witta saak (!) som lag uthwijsar. Till des bref wisso och sanning bider iag att och wälborne man Knut Posse att hänggia sitt signete för thetta bref medh mitt insegle. Skrifwit åhr och dagh och stadh som förskriffuidh står.

Thank you.

There is mentioned Anders Hardh, who is supposed to be a Hansa tradesman. Nils Hard, the first known farmer 1540-1568 of Hardas, Hväsby, Korpo is supposed to be his son.

I noticed some problem with the son of Nils Jönsson Sluk till Grelby, Tyril, stamfar Stålhandske , who should only be referred as Tyril Nilsson (Sluk), who also was a brother of Anna Nilsdotter Sluk, married to another Tyrgil, in his second marriage, and thus become a mother in law to Harald Tyrilsson Stålhandske, Harald Tyrilsson Stålhandske , who in turned married Anna Lapp, the daughter of Henrik Jönsson Lapp and Anna Nilsdotter Sluk. Well, this starts to look like an episode of the TV series sitcom Soap, where people have made a real mess around this relationships in a strange and comic way.
https://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/St%C3%A5lhandske_nr_98

Anders Hardh

Do we have a Geni profile for Olof Mickelsson?

I don't think so, I did not find anyone. But beside that, "Nils Pedersson, the former mayor of Stockholm, and Olof Mickelsson, the current mayor, were relatives "on both sides" of a fourth man", would in english mean that they were third cousins to each other, if I interpreted it right, this common ancestor between them, I have no idea whom that was.

I hadn't thought about that meaning. Maybe that's the answer.

I was thinking "relatives on both sides" of a fourth man meant that one of the men named in the document was the fourth man, and that Nils Pederson and Olaf Mickelson were both his relatives.

So, I've been looking at the men named in the two lists, asking which one is the "fourth man". That doesn't work at all.

I said yesterday "If I read correctly, Peder Nilsson testifies that ..."

No, no. I was scanning too quickly.

The men who are making the statement about the relationship are Björn Månsson and Johan Månsson. Peder Nilsson is one of the six men who took an oath that they were telling the truth.

I do understand it as they are searching for other relatives in Åland to these two men, and that one of the two men are dead, = the other man who was alive would inherit all if no one else would be found, that's why they initiated a new search in those parishes where they was assumed to have been born.

Could this be the right Olof Mickelsson? Olof Mickelsson

This site doesn't say he was mayor, but he lived about the right time and his widow Gunnild Öndesdotter was related to other mayors:

http://www.ulfhlars.se/Genealogi/Borgare/Borgare.htm

http://www.ulfhlars.se/Genealogi/Borgare/Borgare_2.htm

I have looked in those names before, and they connect to Norrland, back to Stockholm as lawmen, clip below.

Gunnild Öndesdotter
Gunnild var moster till borgmästaren Anders Svensson Bjur och dennes broder Per, söner till Sven Bjursson och dennes hustru N. Öndesdotter i Bensbyn och Luleå socken. Att Gunnild var änka efter en Olof Mickelsson när hon gifte sig med Botvid Persson grytgjutare framgår av jordeboken i en notis daterad den 26:e eller 28:e juni 1452[42]. I denna bekräftade Jöns Mickelsson på sin moders vägnar att Botvid Persson grytgjutare och dennes hustru Gunnild hade ”honom förnögt oc wel uträttat” arvet som tillfallit hans moder efter hennes käre son Olof Mickelsson. Olof Mickelssons ägde ett hus på Skomakargatan och var ”melis man” då ett grannhus såldes den 29:e januari 1448

Source:
Några Borgare i Stockholms Stads Tänkeböcker med anor från Luleå och Piteå socknar.
Av Ulf H Larsson
Stockholm
Februari 2009

If we just assume relationship, I added this one,
Mickel Magnusson Tasto

who could have been the father of another Olof Mickelsson who lived in Stockholm at this time.

Tibble
1493 framträder Olof Mickelsson i Tibble vid rådstugurätten i Stockholm angående försäljning av en del i ett hus i Stockholms stad som han ärvt (StJb s 219, StTb s 60).

I see. That man cannot be the right Olof Mickelsson because be was dead before 1452 when Gunnild Öndesdotter was married to Botvid Persson. The Olof Mickelsson we want was alive in 1492 and 1493.

Is that right?

Yes, it's a bit to early for him.

Another thing that struck my mind is about the name Mikael, Mikkel, with various spellings. Before 1500 it was a quite unusual name here up in the north, in almost the same way the name Jesus was, you'll not find any person named Jesus in Scandinavia at all under the medieval period, and the amount of people named Mikael was actually very few.

From 1200 and forward there was a very slow increase of people named Mikkel, and I would not hesitate to state that the total amount of people who bore that name between 1200-1500 was probably less than 300 people in all. The first ancestor in my own tree named Mikkel, was born in the 1500's.

I've noticed the same thing about the name Mikkel, but I don't have enough experience at this period to make any deductions from it.

There was a Lars Michelsson Svanström (no relation to me), born about 1550, borgmästare i Helsingfors 1591-1612. His wife was a member of the Ruuth family, who are also connected to some of the other families we've mentioned. They all seem to part of the same group of oligarchs, holding local power in Sweden and Finland.

Just a note, in 1880 there existed 8 living people wit the name Mikkel, there's actually a good chance that many Mikkel's steam from few line back, where someone among there ancestors also bore that name, maybe all the way back to the end of the 1200,
other more common names are Olof, Lars and Peder, (Per), but when looking at different areas there was most likely under 10 people/ 100.000 with the name combination Olof Mikkelsson, in one and the same county, but I think that the name was more common in the swedish finnish part, maybe twice or threefold. The name seems also have been more common in Denmark. Stockholm at this period were very much influenced by those two areas and that might have contributed with a locally higher rate then the rest of main Sweden. I estimate that the chance that Olof Mickelsson in Tibble, was the same as the new "Borgmästare i Stockholm", 1494, would be one to five, people named Mickel seems all to have belong to landowners, burgess, it's very doubtful that more ordinary people would have been named that at all, but without more traces it's impossible to connect just the one mentioned in your first post and his cousin.

If we knew where to find it, probably someone has done some research on the spread of the name Mikkel in Scandinavia. This is the kind of data that is very important to scholars who are trying to date charters.

The Institutet för språk och folkminnen says it first appears in Sweden in the 1200s. If I had to venture a guess, it would be that the name came to Scandinavia from Russia and Poland. So many names did, in that same period.

Regarding my previous post, https://www.geni.com/discussions/163460?msg=1123864
His mother is set up as 80 years old when she had this son,
Tyril, stamfar Stålhandske and it have become worse when people who shouldn't do genealogy makes their guess works looks that impossible. I repeat, he should only be named Tyril Nilsson (Sluk), and he couldn't have been the "Stamfar" to Stålhandske.

I'm not sure about the answer.

His birth date is way out of line with his parents and siblings shown here. I don't think 1527 can be correct.

The sources cited in his profile are Runeberg and Adelsvapen.com.

Adelsvapen has no birthdate. Runeberg says "à Vapen 1530".

Adelsvapen shows him only as Tyril, not Nilsson, and as stamfar of this family. Runeberg shows him as Tyril Nilsson. I would expect Adelsvapen to be more reliable but perhaps someone has a better source.

http://runeberg.org/anrep/4/0282.html

https://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/St%C3%A5lhandske_nr_98

Yes you are right Justin, these are two different men that happen to share the same first name, Tyril Stamfar Stålhandskeätten, and Tyril Nilsson Sluk.

Two brothers, Joen Tyrilsson to Sjölaks in Kimito parish, Finland, and Harald Tyrilsson to Germundö Saltvik's parish in Åland, were knighted, the former in 1574, the latter in 1578, both with the same weapon, a divided shield, in the upper field two gauntlets in the lower one lying maul.

Their father are depicted in the house of knight's genealogy to have been Tyril Nilsson Sluk of an Åland nobility family of that name, but Mrs. J. Ramsay, in her work on noble families in Finland before the great war, (isoviha, den stora ofreden), has demonstrated that no other connection exists between the families Sluk and Stålhandske than Harald Tyrilssons mother, Anna Nilsdotter was a sister to that mentioned Tyril Nilsson Sluk, and consider it's probable that the ancestor Tyril had been of Swedish nobility, either himself or through his marriage belonged to the same family as in 1565 knighted Swedish dynasty Stålhandske (in Västergötland).

Of the two brothers lines, Harald Tyrilssons died out likely before the founding of the House of Nobility, while Joen Tyrilssons son, the governor of Keksholm was introduced for this noble family in 1625.

Tab 1
Tyril, Kallas i sondottern Margareta Stålhandskes personalier Tyril Stålhandske och uppgives varit gift med Anna Mattsdotter Ruuth. Något bevis härför synes dock ej finnas.
Translation.
Tyril, Known as Tyril Stålhandske, in his granddaughter Margaret Stålhandske personals, are said to have been married to Anna Mattsdotter Ruuth. No evidence for this however, have been found.

https://www.adelsvapen.com/genealogi/St%C3%A5lhandske_nr_98