Saul Wahl (1 day king) grandson of Mordechai Yaffe (Levush)?

That must be the connection, thanks Howard. When pushing the pins, looking for the connection between them on Geni this doesn't show up, one of the problems Geni has to sort out...

The Unbroken Chain, Third Edition 2017, Volume 1, p.11:
"Second Generation; The Children of R. Meir and Hannah Katzenellenbogen

R. Samuel Judah Katzenellenbogen, born in Padua in 1521, married Ogla [sic]."

p.17:"Third Generation; Children of Samuel Judah and Abigail Katzenellenbogen...

...R. Saul Katzenellenbogen, born in Padua in 1545 and died in Brest-Litovsk about 1617/22, married Deborah, daughter of Parnas U'Manhig (Warden and Leader) of the Brest-Litovsk community, David Drucker."

Not sure if this helps.

It does help. A bit.

There is no mention there of Abigail Ogla Katzenellenbogen being a daughter of Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe, Ba׳al "Halevushim". (Additionally the DOB and DOD of Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King) are a bit different).

Thanks.

This wonderful debate is like listening to a Gemora discussion. My only input is that you must all visit the cemetery in Padua as it is very moving to see your ancestors there. It is a closed Bet Kevarot so call the shul office first for the gentleman there to let you in. Some of the tombstones were in the process of being cleaned when I was last there. My husband is a descendent which the guide was slightly non plussed about until his finger on the kever starting bleeding and he said I must be right!!!!
Dr Neil Rosenstein is the mavin who can research these questions further. His work is unbelievable! Kol Hakavod! and Thankyou.

Great that you have been to the cemetery in Padua. I only learned about it after I was in that area in 2010. I was in the Ashkenazi synagogue in the ghetto in Venice and found out that as ABD, the Maharam would have been there several times a year. It was quite exciting to think I stood on the same marble floor he stood on.

I am also a descendant.

Neil Rosenstein in The Unbroken Chain (3rd edition 2017) writes:
R. Samuel Judah Katzenellenbogen born in Padua in 1521 married Ogla. He died in Venice on March 25 (6 Nissan) 1597 and was buried in Padua.
Children of Samuel Judah and Abigail Katzenellenbogen… Saul Katzenellenbogen, born in Padua in 1545 and died in Brest-Litvosk about 1617/22, married Deborah, daughter of Parnas U’Manhig (Warden and Leader) of the Brest-Litovsk community, David Drucker.

This has already been quoted by Private User with the addition of “(sic)” after Ogla.
As has been pointed out above it is impossible for Ogla to have been a daughter of Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe, Ba׳al "Halevushim" judging by their dates of birth. Indeed Rosenstein and Private User confirm that Ogla was not a Jaffe.

Its seems to me that Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen (1 day King)’s mother was in fact called Ogla not Olga; and it’s the overlooking of this distinction which has led to much confusion. A transcript of Ogla’s tombstone inscription can be seen here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46800&st=&pgnu...=, clearly her name was Ogla. In addition Ogla was a nickname for Avigail not Olga (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1664214/jewish/What-D...).

I’ve noted before (https://www.geni.com/discussions/163420?msg=1130072) that Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe, Ba׳al "Halevushim" had a daughter called Olka (or Olga/Volka) married to someone called Wahl, this may have added to the confusion.

In conclusion, I believe Abigail Ogla Katzenellenbogen should be detached from Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe, Ba׳al "Halevushim"; renamed Abigail Ogla; her birth surname erased and her nicknames erased. A new profile ‘Olka’ or ‘Olga’ (without the Abigail; with a nickname Volka) should be added as a daughter of Rabbi Mordechai Jaffe, Ba׳al "Halevushim"; her husband ‘Avraham of Kremnitz’ could be added and Arye Laib Leib Wahl attached to them as a son instead of Abigail Ogla Katzenellenbogen. (Avraham of Kremnitz’s could be attached to his father Rabbi Chaim Wahl, [Maharal s.in law] as I’ve noted above).

Does the curator (Yigal Burstein) or any manager/follower have any objections or arguments?

Who said "Olga"?

The Geni tree currently shows Abigail Olga.

Private User, I'm not sure I understood your question. If you were asking who said there's another person who was a daughter and was called Olga/Olka, I brought a source for that in a previous post which I referrenced before.

No objection from me. I will undo Abigail's connection to Jaffe.
Samuel - you could add the suggested profiles

All fixed!

Thanks all. I learned something I did not know, that Ogla was a nickname for Abigail and that in the Maharam's descendants, in this line, there were a number of subsequent descendants named Ogla.

Much kudos to members of this discussion group for deriving a workable -- at least for the time being -- approach to the longstanding Abigail Ogla - Katzenellenbogen and Jaffe issues. Now that that is ostensibly behind us, I would like to continue this discussion with another previously questioned Katzenellenbogen family matter.

Some of us have already tried to point out the nature of the relationship between Rabbi Moshe Isserles and the Katzenellenbogens' and the authenticity of Rabbi Moshe Isserles' daughter from his third marriage, Mrs. Shlomo (Wahl-) Katzenellenbogen, who was said to be married to a son (Shmuel Wahl-Katzenellenbogen) of "King-for-a-Day" Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen.

While I believe that that often questioned relationship may have existed, it is also helpful to note that Rabbi Isserles' sister, Kendel Drucker, had a daughter named Devorah, who was married to Saul Wahl Katzenellenbogen, and their son, Rabbi Meir Wahl Katzenellenbogen (MaHaRaSh) had a wife named Hinda, who was the daughter of another of Rabbi Moshe Isserles' sisters, Miryam Beila Horowitz.

In other words, we have plotted out three geni.com connections between Rabbi Moshe Isserles and the Katzenellenbogens. His daughter (Mrs. Shmuel Wahl Katzenellenbogen) was married to the brother of Rabbi Meir Wahl Katzenellenbogen, who in turn was married to the daughter of Isserles sister Miryam Beila Horowitz (Hinda was one of the MaHaRaSh's 2 wifes.). Meanwhile, the other Moshe Isserles sister (Kendel Drucker) was the grandmother of both Shmuel Wahl Katzenellenbogen and Rabbi Meir Wahl Katzenellenbogen (2 Katzenellenbogen brothers).

If all of this proves to be true, the thought that these could all have been arranged marriages shows that Rabbi Moshe Isserles may have wielded an amazing amount of influence and prestige. What do you think?

Small correction to the above entry: the first mention in the second paragraph for Rabbi Moshe Isserles' daughter should read "Mrs. Shmuel (Wahl-) Katzenellenbogen" - not "Mrs. Shlomo" My apologies for the confusion.

I know this is an old discussion but with regard to Hinda the Neice of the Rema married to Meir Wahl Katzenellenbogen there is a story behind their shidduch which is the reason their descendants were called Frenkel Thumim if you Google in Hebrew there are various versions of the story.

Private User Kevin Lawrence Hanit Private User Private User Private User Several years ago there was a discussion regarding a source for a connection between Abigail (spouse of MaHaShik) and the Isserles family, and I notice that Abigail is still not fiven a father as of today. I'm not sure if this is valid anymore, but there is a source indicating that Abigail is the grand-niece of the ReMA: https://www.davidicdynasty.org/isserles/. This is a tree from 1779 as transcribed by R' Englard and prepared by Chaim Freedman if I am understanding the notes correctly. It would be interesting to find out what is this tree from 1779 that is relied upon here, and whether it could be correct..

Neil Rosenstein has quite a bit about Abigail in the Third Edition of The Unbroken Chain and i assume has has looked at a lot of evidence for the early generations of the Maharam's family.

Thanks Hatte. I'm glad someone is listening. What does UC3 say about Abigail's parentage?

She's called both Ogla and Abigail, but there's nothing more about her that I see skimming the first volume tonight.

Claudia Bullock Please take note of the thread beginning on 1/29/2020. I mention this in view of your valuable work on the UC3/GENI profiles. I don't know whether you are keeping a list of comments/observations for Neil as you go along, but if so, and if you think this merits mention, please add the possibility of the above referenced Isserles tree as being Abigail's ancestry.

Private User,

I did 99.9% of the work to get the first volume of The Unbroken Chain 3rd edition..on Geni. In the process of doing so.

Kevin Lawrence Hanit The entire research community owes you a debt of gratitude not only for the UC3 work, but everything else you have done. It could be worthwhile to merge the Freedman tree (above) with Abigail, if the facts support it.

I tried to look for information about her parents identity, I couldn't find. I think she's from the jaffe family, but I have no proof of that

Private User,

Haim is right, that we have no proof of her parents.

That is why I'm not going to complete a merge on them.

Kevin