Eleanor Unconfirmed lineage - Eleanor de Massey

Started by Malcolm Jason Hazel on Wednesday, December 7, 2016
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12/7/2016 at 5:43 AM

Contrary to what is stated below, according to Medlands http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL.htm#M...

Eleanor was NOT the daughter of Earl Robert de Beaumont and Amice de Gael who had four children:
a) ISABELLE de Beaumont (-after 1188). Robert of Torigny refers to the wife of "Symone comite Huntedoniæ" as "filia Roberti comitis Legecestriæ" but does not name her[1344]. "R. comes Legrecestrie" granted tithes to "Isabele comitisse de Norhamtone sororis mee" by charter dated to the middle of the reign of King Henry II[1345]. "I. comitissa Northamptonie" donated land at Groby to Nuneaton priory, for the souls of "patris mei et fratris mei R. comitis Legrecestrie" by charter dated to the middle of the reign of King Henry II[1346]. It is likely that Isabelle was the eldest child as she gave birth to her own first child in [1138]. Her second marriage is confirmed by charter dated 1187 under which “Gervasius Paganellus” donated property to Tykford Priory, with the consent of “uxoris meæ Isabellæ comitissæ de Norhamton”, which names “Fulcodius Paganellus avus meus et Radulfus Paganellus pater meus”, witnessed by “Simone comite Northamptoniæ, Isabella comitissa matre eius”[1347]. m firstly (before 1138) SIMON de Senlis, son of SIMON de Senlis Earl of Huntingdon and Northampton & his wife Matilda [Matilda] of Huntingdon (-Aug 1153, bur St Andrew's Priory). He was restored as Earl of Huntingdon and Northampton [before 1141]. m secondly GERVASE Paynell Baron of Dudley, Worcestershire, son of RALPH Paynell & his wife --- (-1194[1348]).

b) ROBERT de Beaumont "ès Blanchemains" (-Durazzo 1190). Robert of Torigny records the death in 1168 of "Robertus comes Leecestriæ" and the succession of "filium Robertum"[1349]. He succeeded his father in 1168 as Earl of Leicester.

- see below.

c) HAVISE de Beaumont (-24 Apr or 25 May 1197). The Chronica de Fundatoribus et Fundatione of Tewkesbury Abbey records that “comes Willielmus” married “Hawisia filia comitis Leicestriæ”[1350]. The Obituary of Lyre records the death 25 May of “Hawis comitissa Gloecestræ”[1351]. The Annals of Tewkesbury record the death “VIII Kal Mai” in 1197 of “Hawisa comitissa Glocestriæ”[1352]. The necrology of Lyre monastery records the death "25 May" of "Hawis comitissa Gloecestræ"[1353]. m ([1150]) WILLIAM FitzRobert Earl of Gloucester, son of ROBERT Fitzroy Earl of Gloucester & his wife Mabel [Matilda or Sibylle] FitzRobert (23 Nov [1112]-23 Nov 1183, bur Keynsham Abbey, Somerset),

d) MARGUERITE de Beaumont ([1125]-after 1185). Robert of Torigny refers to the wife of "Radulfus de Toene" as "filia Roberti comitis Leccestriæ" but does not name her[1354]. The Rotuli de Dominabus of 1185 records “Margareta de Tony…lx annorum” and her land “in Welcumestowe"[1355]. m (after 1155) RAOUL [V] de Tosny, son of ROGER [III] Seigneur de Tosny & his wife Gertrude [Ida] de Hainaut (-1162).

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ID: I104324
Name: Eleanor de Beaumont
and what is this have you tried English

Birth: 1115 in Cheshire, England
Father: Earl Robert (Bossu) de Beaumont b: 1104 in Leicester, Leicestershire, England

Mother: Amice (Waiet Uta) de Gael b: 1108 in Montford de Gael, Brittany, France Malcolm hazel so your saying she was 7 years old when she gave birth, come off it

Marriage 1 Hamon de Massey b: 1100 in Cheadle, Stafford, England

* Married: ABT 1124 in Durham, Massey, England
Children

1. Has Children Hamon de Massey b: 1133 in Dunham Massey,England
source:

http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&am...

Hammon married Eleanor De Beaumont about 1118 in England.
http://masseyfamgenealogy.tripod.com/a29.htm#i14812

Eleanor De Beaumont , daughter of Sir Robert De Beaumont 1st Earl Leicester and Amice De Montfort, was born in 1100 in England and died on an unknown date.

7. Eleanor de BEAUMONT (Robert I DE 1st Earl of Leicester 4, Roger DE Seigneur de Beaumont and Pont-Audemer 3, Humphrey DE Seigneur de Vieilles and Pont-Audemer 2, Thurolf DE Seigneur de Pont-Audemer (Ancestor of Beaumont) 1) was born in 1100 in Leicester Castle, Leicestershire, England and died of Dunham Massey, Bucklow, Cheshire, England. Eleanor married (Sir) Hamon II DE MASSEY Baron de Massey 68 circa 1125.68 Hamon was born about 1100 in Cheadle, Stockport, Cheshire, England 68 and died about 1140 in Dunham Massey, Bucklow, Cheshire, England 68 about age 40.

The Child from this marriage was:

Private User
12/8/2016 at 7:38 PM

There's a lot of this, all up and down and around the tree. In some cases it develops because people Wild Guess birthdates until they come up against one that is clearly impossible (and then stop). In other cases it's "family tradition" aka legend.

What is wanted here, if it can be found, is primary documentation that says X was born on such-a-date, and/or married to Y on or about this date at this place, and/or had children A, B and C who were christened at such-a-place on such-a-date, and/or was named as spouse of Y in this legal document relating to such-a-matter, etc.

Most of the time you're lucky to find *one* of the above, if that.

Nevertheless, people continue to state as incontrovertible fact what is often just a pile of Wild Guesses.

12/9/2016 at 6:35 AM

the problem is you get a lot of repeaters that have latch on to it and its hard to sift through

12/9/2016 at 3:34 PM

There is evidence, given on the profile for Hamon II for their marriage but if she is not the daughter of Earl Robert and Amice who might her parents have been?

12/9/2016 at 3:55 PM

Ormerod has no wife listed for the 2nd Hamo

https://archive.org/stream/historyofcountyp00orme#page/398/mode/2up

12/9/2016 at 4:05 PM

It does show son and heir of Hamo II however which implies a wife existed. I'm open to make changes if there's support for them but would rather have some source that gives contrary evidence first.

12/9/2016 at 11:39 PM

It looks like "Eleanor Beaumont" comes from the old Ancestral file.

From a hobbyist site, so many grains of salt (but you were looking for origins of the wife's name, I think?)

http://www.ffish.com/family_tree/descendants_william_de_la_ferte_ma...

8. Hamon II Massey 17 (Hamon de, 1st Baron de Dunham2, William (Viscount)1) was born about 1100 in Cheadle, Cheshire, England and died about 1140 in Dunham Massey, Bucklow, Cheshire, England about age 40.

Research Notes: From A History of Altrincham and Bowdon, p. 9:

"The second Hamon had issue Hamon, a son and heir, and Robert Massey, from whom sprang the Masseys of Sale. This is probably the Hamon Massey who is noticed in one of the ancient chronicles as having held the Castle of Dunham against Henry II. in 1173, during the rebellion of which Hugh Earl of Chester was principal leader. He gave the lands of Bramhall, or Bromale, to Matthew de Bromale by charter..."

Hamon married Eleanor Beaumont about 1124 in Dunham Massey, Bucklow, Cheshire, England. Eleanor was born about 1100 in Cheshire, England.

Research Notes: FamilySearch? Rootsweb? AFN: 18GS-7K2

12/10/2016 at 12:21 AM

The reference given above ( A History of Altrincham and Bowdon, p. 9) confirms 2 sons of the 2nd Hamon by unknown wife, Hamon & Robert

https://archive.org/stream/altrinchambowdon00ingh#page/8/mode/2up

10/26/2017 at 5:05 PM

Has anyone been able to confirm Hamon II wife and her parents yet?

10/26/2017 at 5:05 PM

Has anyone been able to confirm Hamon II wife and her parents yet?

6/10/2018 at 6:40 PM

Robert de Beaumont, 1st Earl of Leicester married Elizabeth Vermandois in 1096.

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