Manfred - Manfred, Galfred and Rollo

Sorry Ulf, I guess i jumped in too soon without waiting to see if you had more to say.

Harald, the sunstone makes UV light (piercing the cloud cover) visible when the sun itself is not, exactly like on the TV show. Sadly, as you explained earlier the sun only helps with tracking latitude. Calculating longitude accurately was really perfected until the late 1700s using sextants and chronometers (which are just fancy clocks).

Wanda, I don't follow your logic. Floki finding Iceland before the raids on France does not mean he pre-dates Noah?!? The Epic of Gilgamesh, from which Noah seems to be copied, is about 5000 years olf so a little before Floki :) As for the book that you linked to, it's quality as a source is...

Chapter 2 (Kalfi 2) of Landnamabok (https://www.geni.com/projects/Landn%25C3%25A1mab%25C3%25B3k-2-kafli...) does not name the ravens so where the idea that they are named, or what they are named, comes from is anyone's guess as the Birds of Omen author doesnt reference anything.

Hi Alex, I did not say that Floki finding Iceland predates Noah. Floki using Ravens to find Iceland predates the Sunstone use. They used sunstone for navigation AFTER finding Iceland (that is where they found the sunstone) so that means the ravens were used to find Iceland BEFORE, the use of sunstone. That gives a timeline for the period they lived and what tools of navigation they used.

The Raven was widely revered among the Vikings.

In building a timeline, Floki and the three Ravens find Iceland. Iceland is settled in the year 874 according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_Iceland

An old Norse manuscript says Floki discovered Iceland in 864, that he made a sacrifice and consecrated the three ravens.

In the year 878, just 4 or 14 yrs. later, Hubba, one of Ragnar's son's meets a miserable death when his raven banner is captured along with other booty.

33 yrs. later, ( or 47 yrs.)(about the time for one or two generation of children to be born) In the year 911-912 Mainfred, Galfred and Rollo are hanging out together in Mayenne and the Seine in France.

Birds of Omen in Shetland Inaugural Address to the VIKING CLUB of LONDON October 13, 1892, (Saxby, Jessie M.E.) is the only reference I have for Floki naming the three Norse Gods he consecrates the ravens to. The Landnamabok does not give this detail.
Viking Club of London - Founded in 1892 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_Society_for_Northern_Research

Image of Pierce Coat of Arms with 3 Ravens https://www.flickr.com/photos/internetarchivebookimages/14598202229

Image of Irish Anglos Saxon Pierce Coat of Arms with 3 Wolves
(is this another Norse symbolic theme referring to the 3 wolves in Ragnarök?http://www.irishsurnames.com/cgi-bin/gallery.pl?name=pierce&cap...

These two coats of arms do not show up until the Pierce name is changed after leaving Pearce Hall Yorkshire England. One branch went to Ireland, the other to America.

Why not question the origin and symbolic meaning of the three ravens? Floki wasn't interested in marauding so much as navigating and helping to settle his people in a new land. Captain William Pierce was a famed mariner of his time bringing more people to America on more ships safely than any other. The mysterious appearance of the coat of arms shows up during this transition so I have to wonder, is it a ancient Norse reference and was it used for good luck in settling America, as it was good luck for Floki when he settled in Iceland. It's completely speculative because I don't have a source that says what what those Ravens represented. It would be funny though to think that a Danish or Swedish Viking descendant helped settle America. Other people, would probably be upset to think that Norse mythology might be behind some of this.

You also have another mythological fairy king, "Brân Fendigaidd, literally "Blessed Crow") is a giant and king of Britain in Welsh mythology. The name "Brân" in Welsh is usually translated as crow or raven".

In the myth he was a giant and he could wade over to Ireland in a few steps, he also served as a bridge over a river.

"According to the Welsh Triads, Brân's head was buried in London where the White Tower now stands. As long as it remained there, Britain would be safe from invasion. However, King Arthur dug up the head, declaring the country would be protected only by his great strength. There have been attempts in modern times to link the still-current practice of keeping ravens at the Tower of London under the care of Yeomen Warder Ravenmaster with this story of Brân, whose name means Raven."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%A2n_the_Blessed

Note - Floki didn't have all the three ravens with him when he got to Iceland. The first one flew back home according to Landnamabok.

If you quote "an old Norse manuscript", be careful. The Vikings TV series is just the latest in a centuries-old tradition of making up stories that are loosely based on the saga sources. If it doesn't have a name, there's very much reason not to trust it!

Ulf, I think I remember reading about Bran somewhere. It was very interesting. Thank you. The Idea of the Ravens leaving the tower = fall of the monarchy is an interesting belief. You are right Harald, one of the Raven's did fly back to the Faroe Islands. I was thinking more about they symbolic use of the ravens and hoped it might provide clues to the past for research purposes. It had to have some kind of meaning, and Floki's 3 Ravens was the only reference I could find that made sense. The Vikings seemed to use the number three a lot on their mythology and art.

Weren't the ravens Thor's bird? But there really isn't any need to go into legend. Ravens are carrion-eating birds. They are also highly intelligent. Other birds congregate when they see someone ploughing a field; because they know there will be worms on the field behind the plough. Ravens, I suspect, followed armies because they knew there was a likelihood of dead bodies to eat. The Percies had the ravens on their coat of arms to tell their enemies that they would be eaten by ravens after their deaths. If you look at the Border Ballads (the area where the Percies came from) they are full of ravens ("corbies") eating the dead.

Thank you Mark, I didn't know about the border ballads. I had read a little about the tower of London Ravens. Do you have a link to the Border Ballads? I wonder if the Corbet family line is named for the area.

It strikes me when reading Palsson’s translation of Landnamabok https://books.google.com.au/books?id=jj6cIwMCZqIC&pg=PA17&l... that in the story of Hrafna-Flóki the ravens don’t actually have any affect on the story-line. Floki literally doesn’t even have to change course as the third raven flies towards land straight over the prow of his ship. In this version of the story the ravens are doing nothing other than adding some interest and explaining Flóki of the Ravens nickname, I would not be at all surprised if the whole thing is made up (whether by the saga singers or the authors of the book).

It's all in who tells the story and how much detail they want to include. Then it just comes down to what you want to believe. The Saga Museum is backing Floki lol http://www.sagamuseum.is/overview/hrafna-floki

People find it hard to believe certain things. In the old days, people relied a lot on nature and were more in touch with it. Now they are only touch with the key that turns their BMW on.

What do you mean "backing Floki"? The website you linked is just a re-wording of Landnamabok.

I don't have any trouble believing Floki sailed to Island without a GPS, what i am saying to you is that you need to accept the version of events written down 400 years after the fact may not be an exact representation of what actually happened, nor even close.

I suppose if your colonial ship's captain believed that Floki really did navigate by raven then it's possible that is the reason for the 3 ravens on your family crest but then i have to ask how much knowledge would your average colonial sea captain have had of Icelandic viking history?

lol Alex, let me reword that better, "backing the story" of Floki and the three Ravens. I don't think its a matter of an average colonial sea captain (Captain William Pierce was by no means average) having Icelandic Viking History knowledge, but the secrets that family's pass down for generations. The Vikings were secretive about their navigation methods, after all, if other's found out how to do what they did, then they could do it too.

Things can become lost in antiquity. When Men applied for their coat of arms, did they say what the symbols meant to them, and was that recorded someplace. For the possible thousands of coats of arms issued at the time, who would have time to decipher all of that.

From what I see on Wikipedia, ravens are not very migratory birds; a long migration causes them stress. So they are not very useful as navigation aids. I don't think that the Corbetts took their name from corbies, though they might have done.

I'm no expert on heraldry. But I think the Percy coat of arms is very early; you did not have to apply, just choose something which made you recognisable to friends and foes. Later on, the College of Heralds was founded, which tried to regulate who was entitled to coats of arms and who was not; a class thing. I think you could probably have tried to negotiate what you wanted on your coat of arms, if you didn't already have one (as you still can, if you are made a knight or lord) but ultimately you have to accept what they give you.

And you had to pay for a new coat of arms, as well as providing some sort of pedigree (however short, or however incomplete). I'm currently working with the Visitations of Cornwall and Dorset, of 1620. They were letting in all sorts of people as "gentry", entitled to coats of arms, whom they would probably not have accepted 50 years before. Probably under instructions from James I, to get as much money as he could. At roughly the same time he invented baronetcies, inheritable knighthoods, for which people also had to pay. And there is a Cornish Baron of Truro who allegedly did not want the barony (he had no heir) who was, according to critics of the king, made to take the title (and pay money for it) nonetheless.

Mark

That is great information Mark :) Thank you!

Isn't coat of arms i the US just a commercial thing, not heraldry?

I once did an experiment with one of the companies that promise to find your coat of arms and give you a history and explanation of it. The first searches for a name I for sure know was not knighted did not give any result and after allying with several friends making the same search over time we suddenly got a result, - and a fantastic history around it, and an offer to buy products with it. All of course fake...

There's always been a lot of fakery and commercialism about coats of arms, at least since the need to recognise your allies on the battlefield by their shields and banners (and know which enemies might be worth keeping alive and ransoming) disappeared, I know that at least one of my eighteenth-century ancestors pinched a coat of arms to which he was not entitled, and stuck it in a church, just as people buy coats of arms now in the naive belief that anyone with the same surname has a right to carry the same coat of arms.

In England, though, you did not have to be knighted to have a coat of arms, You just had to be registered as an "armiger" (Esquire). William Shakespeare, that well-known warrior, got himself and his father registered as gentlemen and had some coat of arms.

Outside England coats of arms could get impossibly complicated. In Austria you were supposed to quarter the arms with your mother. Imagine the degrees of quartering over four or five generations.

Mark

I found sources to validate the Pierce/Perice coat of Arms but of course, they don't mention why they use 3 Ravens, so it must be personal.

Crozier's General Armory: A Registry of American Families Entitled to Coat Armor lists Edward Peirce Philadelphia 1737 and John Peirce Watertown MA 1638. (P.103)

and

Official registration of the Peirce Coat of Arms on Page 223 of the Book Display of Heraldry by John Guillim (1724).for Richard Peirce of London esq. and that one Mark, I now know thanks to you, is not a knighted coat of arms but a registered coat of arms. It never looked anything like the Percy's of Northumberland's Coat of Arms but it probably has an interesting story behind it that I just can't find. Thank you again for your great information Mark. :)

This is a rather late response, but after testing my Uncle's DNA as much as possible, it is found his most ancient ancestor is indeed Danish and he matches a rare Ribe DNA from the oldest Viking settlement in Denmark called Ribe Jutland Denmark. His DNA matches the story of Galfred, Mainfred or Manfred who were Danish Chieftains from whom the Percy name derived.