Charles Marais, SV/PROG - Birth Place Not Plessis Mornay?

Started by Sharon Doubell on Friday, August 26, 2016
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8/26/2016 at 11:20 AM

M.Boucher's 1981 'French speakers at the Cape: The European Background' challenges the idea that Charles Marais' birthplace is Plessis Mornay - as we have it; suggesting, that this was the estate belonging to the Duplessis Mornays:

The Cape settlers from this part of France [From the Loire to the Channel] came largely, but not exclusively, from the towns and villages of coastal Normandy and from a rural quadrilateral with Paris, Orleans, Blois and L'Aigle at its corners. Indeed one refugee ship brought a party of French settlers from the United Provinces whose original homes, despite indications to the contrary by C. Graham Botha 2 and J.L.M. Franken,' were all within the quadrilateral. The vessel was the Voorschooten of Delft, which sailed from Goeree on December 31, 1687 under the captaincy of Frans Villerius.... In the context of this voyage, Franken’s identification of the Cape farm Le Plessis Marie with a locality near Marie in Picardy is certainly wide of the mark. 6 It was the refugee Charles Marais who perpetuated the name of his place of origin in the designation of the farm granted to him in 1688. He and his family came from the Hurepoix region of the Ile-de- France, south and south-west of Paris, and were members of the congregation worshipping at Le Plessis-Marly near Longvilliers, a village north-west of Dourdan towards the Rambouillet forest. Le Plessis- Marly was the estate of the Duplessis-Mornays, the family which gave the statesman Philippe de Mornay to the Protestant cause in the troubled days of Henri IV."

Any thoughts?

Private User
8/26/2016 at 4:31 PM

According to records I have seen on Geneanet, Charles Marais was born at Plessis-Marly, near Longvilliers....

Private User
8/26/2016 at 4:35 PM

Also gives his father as Isaac not Jean

8/26/2016 at 10:28 PM

Can you find the Records? I think the question is whether he was born on the estate or not.

8/26/2016 at 10:30 PM

This in the Overview - not sourced, tho: "Charles Marais was originally from Lesierre du Plessis near Marle, where they owned a farm called ‘Orange', and later Plessismornay near Longvilliers, a district of Paris."

8/26/2016 at 10:31 PM

As to the father- we need to look at that too.

Private User
8/27/2016 at 3:15 AM

Private User you are correct on the place of birth. That is what the research of numerous people added there in the about section once upon a day in 2009 said with research notes and sources.
The parents I got from research done by the Hugenote Museum long ago.
He also have a brother Jean that didn't want to give up the Church and stayed behind.
Sharon Doubell I do have all the research and sources and about his murder, the Inkwisisie" but don't have the time this weekend to look for it.

Again it was all there before sources could be added.

Lekker naweek.Judi Marais married Meyer

8/27/2016 at 9:01 AM

It would be great to collect the original sources that we have for him onto his profile.

The question is whether
-he was born on or just near the Le Plessis-Marly Estate, Longvilliers?
-whether Le Plessis-Marly was the name of the whole area in Longvilliers that he was born in?
-or whether it has been extrapolated from his SA farm name, & he was actually just born near Longvilliers, and only worshipped at the Plessis-Marly estate church?

What the source is for this on the overview:"Charles Marais was originally from Lesierre du Plessis near Marle, where they owned a farm called ‘Orange', and later Plessismornay near Longvilliers, a district of Paris" would be interesting too.

It is, indeed, a small point - I'm just trying to cram as much research as we can find into these Huguenot profiles. (Partly because I'm directly descended from 50+ of them :-))

8/27/2016 at 12:28 PM

The following may provide additional context:

According to Moréri, the Mornai Family (nobles since the 1200s) became associated with the Plessis-Marli estate (possibly a fief then) via the marriage between Jacques de Mornai, seigneur de Buhi (located in the Vexin Français) and Françoise du Bec, dame du Plessi-Marli in c1525.

Why this may be interesting is a son of Jacques and Françoise was Philippe Duplessis-Mornay (1549-1623), who happened to become (as I read on Wikipédia) a famous Huguenot. Apparently, he was quite an active protestant. He also had at least a child born « au Plessis-Mornay ». There would be religious services conducted at Plessis-Mornay.

Coming back to Charles Marais, it is therefore possible to think that, if his parents were practicing protestants, they would have resided at the fief and therefore, Charles be born there.

With regard to whether Plessis-Mornay is a place in the village of Longvilliers or is Plessis-Mornay a "village" of its own. When I look at encyclopedias of the time, Plessis-Mornay is never mentioned as a village. It would appear it was a hamlet of Longvilliers. The population of Longvilliers at the time was approx 320.

If all this adds up, and if no better sources come up, then the proper way to display the place of birth would be:

Place = Domaine Plessis-Mornay {with a dash}
City = Longvilliers
County = Hurepoix
State/Province = Isle de France
Country = France

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000046081533125

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Duplessis-Mornay

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longvilliers_(Yvelines)

8/27/2016 at 12:45 PM

P.S.: "Charles Marais was originally from Lesierre du Plessis near Marle":

« Lesierre du Plessis » is not a location, but someone's title (in old spelling). Lesierre is "Le Sieur" or "My Lord" or "Sir". Du Plessis is the family name. Therefore: Sir Du Plessis (or Sir Duplessis).

The sentence "Charles Marais was originally from Lesierre du Plessis near Marle" is nonsense. It should read: "Charles Marais was originally from the domaine Plessis-Marli".

"Plessis-Marli" was the name of the domaine before Jacques Mornai married Françoise de Bec. After that, it was "Plessis-Mornai" and became "Plessis-Mornay".

As far as the encyclopedia of the time can tell, there are no town named "Marle" anywhere close to Longvilliers. I checked different variations (Marles, Marlhes, Marliac, Marliens, Marlieux, Marly). The closest seems to be in Picardie.

8/27/2016 at 11:47 PM

Wow! Yes morel - that's exactly what I was looking for. What a star.
I'll go and record of like that when I get onto my computer.
Thank you!

12/16/2021 at 12:25 AM

Alt DATA after merges: Birth Date 30 March 1638 3 March 1638

What Sources do we have to validate either of these at all?

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